Off Topic EU deabte. Which way are you voting ?

[BobbyD]

Free movement as an eu citizen is different from open borders. You still need a passport and border checks to enter to the uk.

That's not what you said. We don't have control of our borders. That's very different from Open borders. Having control suggests we can choose who to let in or out (or literally we have a giant wall across our country, we got the next best thing a big moat). Spurs boy is right and you are still wrong

 

[SpursDisciple]

Free movement as an eu citizen is different from open borders. You still need a passport and border checks to enter to the uk.

So 250,000 migrants get given Italian passports, they then can move freely to Britain. Schengen is about passport control, but if you have an EU passport, you can travel freely. The problem with current immigration is that we get too many from inside EU who've no particular skills and too few from outside EU who are Doctors, Nurses, Scientists, Engineers etc

 

[Tobes]

That's not what you said. We don't have control of our borders. That's very different from Open borders. Having control suggests we can choose who to let in or out (or literally we have a giant wall across our country, we got the next best thing a big moat). Spurs boy is right and you are still wrong

Just on this point.

Post the new legislation that followed Camerons negotiation with the EU. EU citizens who come to his country are entitled to no benefits whatsoever for 3 months. After 3 months they are eligible for JSA and child benefit, but NOT housing benefit - and only for 3 months. If at the end of that 3 months they cannot prove that they have an imminent prospect of work i.e. a job offer, then they get **** all.

So, economic migrants who come here now, either have to work and add to the economy or have the funds to be self sufficient or basically **** off.

 

[SpursDisciple]

Just on this point.

Post the new legislation that followed Camerons negotiation with the EU. EU citizens who come to his country are entitled to no benefits whatsoever for 3 months. After 3 months they are eligible for JSA and child benefit, but NOT housing benefit - and only for 3 months. If at the end of that 3 months they cannot prove that they have an imminent prospect of work i.e. a job offer, then they get **** all.

So, economic migrants who come here now, either have to work and add to the economy or have the funds to be self sufficient or basically **** off.

We can apply for that for a while. It is not a long term agreement. The EU can say no even now. I'm arguing against myself, cause I'm for staying - mainly cause I don't trust an unfettered Tory govt, but doesn't change the fact that Cameron's deal is worth very little.

 

[Skylarker]

What you are basically saying is you have no faith in any British political party to run this country so we will sell out and hand over control to a super government? Nice.....

Pretty much yeah

 

[Tobes]

We can apply for that for a while. It is not a long term agreement. The EU can say no even now. I'm arguing against myself, cause I'm for staying - mainly cause I don't trust an unfettered Tory govt, but doesn't change the fact that Cameron's deal is worth very little.

In fairness it's worth something and it's seemingly not widely known as to how the system now actually works, given some of the absolute tripe I've seen written about the immigration issue during the EU debate.

 

[paultheplug]

Have already voted leave. http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/six-best-reasons-vote-leave/

I, too, get annoyed when the focus is on immigration, especially since immigration has done far more good than bad for this country since WW2.
What we should be focusing on is the erosion of our democracy, being under EU rule is not a democracy. I will say again, we did not vote them in, and more importantly we cannot vote them out.
ANYONE who is not elected by the British public, should NOT be dictating legislation to us. Its that simple.
I dont give a **** what drops in value, or other trade rammifications there will be (And they will be minimal by most accounts), its worth it to live in a democracy again.

Idiots like Patrick Stewart harping on about the EU doing this and that, "Oh they introduced Anti-Slavery laws" thats good Pat, because before we joined the EU in 1973, slavery was a huge ****ing problem in England wasn't it, you bald headed prick! I think you will find we outlawed Slavery in the UK about 150 years before the EU was even thought into existence.
Minimum wage, working conditions etc etc, yeah, all good stuff, so you think if we leave the EU the Uk government will go "AHA no EU to protect you now, the minimum wage is now 70p an hour and a pack of gobstoppers and no holidays for anyone MUHAHAHA!"
We can keep the **** that makes sense and ditch the stuff that doesn't.

As far as trade goes, read the link I put above and it will rubbish any concerns you have regarding that.

Let's kill off the argument that the EU is undemocratic. The European Parliament is elected by all enfranchised citizens of the EU by proportional representation, unlike in the UK where 25% of the electorate have voted in a government that can dictate to the other 75%. The EU commisioners from each country are appointed by the head of that country's elected government similar to how Hunt was appointed Secretary of State for Health. The President is agreed upon by the heads of the 28 member countries. The only unaccountable staff at the EU are the bureaucrats, just like our own civil service. The British interests, however are not well served by many of the MEPs that we elected as they do not bother to take part in the process and only go to claim their expenses. Leading the way in that respect is the idiot Farage.
There is room for much improvement within the EU, but as we are still going to have to meet EU standards for trade it is obviously better that we are part of the decision making process.

I have voted to remain in the EU . Do not let all the myths about the EU cloud your judgement.

 

[Spurlock]

Will I get a wage rise? I go wherever I get a wage rise.

 

[Skylarker]

Will I get a wage rise? I go wherever I get a wage rise.

Didn't you just get one?

 

[Spurlock]

Didn't you just get one?

I need another...the last one was patronising.

P.s I'm voting for whatever you vote Sky. That cut and paste you did was my kind of level, top job.

 

[Skylarker]

I need another...the last one was patronising.

P.s I'm voting for whatever you vote Sky. That cut and paste you did was my kind of level, top job.

I'm trusting that guys telling me the truth and I'm voting 'IN'

Tobes and Bod are just geeks and making my head hurt.

 

[PINKIE]

That's not what you said. We don't have control of our borders. That's very different from Open borders. Having control suggests we can choose who to let in or out (or literally we have a giant wall across our country, we got the next best thing a big moat). Spurs boy is right and you are still wrong

I said that we don't have open borders. We are not in Schengen, therefore you have to have a passport and go through immigration control as you enter the UK. EU citizens have free movement, but they still have to go through the border checks like anybody else.

The point I'm making is that the Out campaign paint a picture of people coming in unchecked and 'flooding' the country and there's nothing we can do about it. That simply isn't the case.

 

[PINKIE]

So 250,000 migrants get given Italian passports, they then can move freely to Britain. Schengen is about passport control, but if you have an EU passport, you can travel freely. The problem with current immigration is that we get too many from inside EU who've no particular skills and too few from outside EU who are Doctors, Nurses, Scientists, Engineers etc

Do you have any facts and figures to back this up with ? Not contesting it, I'm just interested you know where you're getting that info from. The figures from HRMC show that immigrants contribute more in taxes into the exchequer than they do in benefit receipts, so the net gain is a positive one for the UK economy.

Also, I was listening to a prog on Radio 4 the other evening where a food processor was saying that even unskilled EU workers contribute massively to the UK economy by doing the jobs at minimum wage that English people just won't do. His example was food packagers. He used Polish, Latvian and Hungarian workers because he cannot get English people to do the jobs. If we left the EU and restricted the free movement and employment rights of EU nationals, then he was saying that food prices would rise because he would have to pay more to attract UK workers to the jobs.

 

[Sweats]

I think I'm voting to stay in.

 

[PINKIE]

I've added a Poll

Simple question, In or out ?

 

[Treble]

So 250,000 migrants get given Italian passports, they then can move freely to Britain. Schengen is about passport control, but if you have an EU passport, you can travel freely. The problem with current immigration is that we get too many from inside EU who've no particular skills and too few from outside EU who are Doctors, Nurses, Scientists, Engineers etc

Except that virtually half the net migration into the UK (185,000) is from outside the EU. How many doctors, nurses, scientists, engineers cant you find in that number?

 

[DarloGeordie]

Alright, you filthy animals. I don’t normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but:

a) this ain‘t an election, it’s a referendum so go **** yourself

and

b) I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I’ll feel like I’ve done something important.

So, I’ll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I’d find myself agreeing with David ‘PigFellatio’ Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here’s why:

We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. “How much”, you’re (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can’t be a twat and say ‘you’re making that up!’ and froth at the mouth like a rabid ****.

I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are “14 Reasons Why We Shouldn’t Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won’t Believe #8!”:

1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world’s markets by value (in other words, the EU’s combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world’s, and we can tap into it whenever the **** we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like South Korea and South Africa. [2]
2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn’t impale him/herself on a ****tily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3]
3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]
4) The EU gave us lead free petrol. [5]
5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] **** yeah, cheap things!
6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]
7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it’s in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it’s chicken. It wasn’t always chicken, though). [9]
8) The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don’t know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game ‘Monopoly’ and see how many friends you have left when you win.
9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]
10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how ****ing great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you’ve ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you’ll understand what I’m saying.
11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I’d also like to point out that it’s some of these same human rights that David ‘PorkTwatter’ Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]
12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]
13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration(including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I **** you not). [16]
14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also assisted in the extraordinary social, political and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. [18]



SOURCES:
[1] http://news.cbi.org.uk/…/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-…/
[2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-1080_en.htm
[3] http://ec.europa.eu/…/general_product_safety_d…/index_en.htm
[4] http://ec.europa.eu/…/general_product_safety_d…/index_en.htm
[5] http://ec.europa.eu/environme…/…/project/Projects/index.cfm…
[6] https://www.theguardian.com/…/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone…
[7] http://europa.eu/…/citizens/travel/passeng…/air/index_en.htm
[8] http://www.theguardian.com/…/england-beaches-bathing-waters…
[9] http://ec.europa.eu/…/la…/labelling_legislation/index_en.htm
[10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w…/European_Union_competition_law (I know I’m not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but **** YOU I’m not in uni anymore, I’ll do what I like).
[11] http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage…
[12] http://ec.europa.eu/…/borders-and-…/visa-policy/index_en.htm
[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/…/European_Convention_on_Human_R…
[14] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/David-Camerons-plan-to-scrap-t…
[15] http://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/index_en.htm
[16] http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/94691_en.html
[17] The Second World War, motherfucker. Read a history book.
[18] The Cold War, motherfucker. Read a history book.

And now, let’s take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU.

Apart from the fact that I can’t find a single reputable study that suggests we’d be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I’ve looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I’ve found are what I’m going to term ‘the trade argument’ and ‘the immigration argument’.

The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of ‘amicable divorce’ where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU.

I have two retorts to this argument.

My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place.

To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of ‘married couple’ and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren’t met. Canada’s CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger’s party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I’m sure you’ll agree.

My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk?

If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I’ve taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there’s a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a ****storm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you’re effectively handing control of our country over to David ‘HideTheSausageLiterally’ Cameron, don’t you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole ‘visa-free work and travel’ thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it’s espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I’d refer you to point no. 9 above; we’re safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the ‘stealing our jobs’ fear; while it’s true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we’ve been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn’t happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn’t trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I’d be willing to wager that you don’t, and I’ll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically.

They’re either starting their own businesses (in which case they’re actually creating jobs), or they’re skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren’t enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they’re unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don’t want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work ****ty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don’t worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you’re **** at your job.

If you’ve made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You’re nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought.

Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive ****stacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That’s right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don’t gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

In conclusion: we’re in a really great position right now. We’re part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn’t leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely ‘better together’ rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

tl;dr version: Vote to stay in the EU, you filthy animals. Because reasons. Trust me, I know what I’m talking about.

I'm voting to leave still as even before we were in the EU in 1973 we were still breathing, living and walking and also how do you know those thing were not to happen anyway we are not a ****ing third world country. If people want your products they will buy, if Britain is the best people to make things then we will have trade. People are so scared of leaving the EU we feel like they have to hold our ****ing hands and ask them before we go for a piss.
We need to break from the EU and be a leader and take our identity back not be a ****ing sheep.

So I'm out, **** the EU those who vote to stay good luck to you cowards.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

I'm voting to leave still as even before we were in the EU in 1973 we were still breathing, living and walking and also how do you know those thing were not to happen anyway we are not a ****ing third world country. If people want your products they will buy, if Britain is the best people to make things then we will have trade. People are so scared of leaving the EU we feel like they have to hold our ****ing hands and ask them before we go for a piss.
We need to break from the EU and be a leader and take our identity back not be a ****ing sheep.

So I'm out, **** the EU those who vote to stay good luck to you cowards.

This argument always seems to miss some vital points to me. No one is saying that people will totally cease to buy our products/goods, only that it will cost us more to sell them, and cost us more to buy products from the EU. Note - we currently trade more with Holland than with China while something like 60% of our trade is with Europe.

I also remember reading of the 70s and rolling blackouts, 3 day weeks, mass industrial action/union threats and lots of racial tension and the rise of the National Front from low wages/prospects. Ignoring the fact that the world has changed dramatically in the last 35 years, this isnt a particularly good advert for the Outers to use

 

[DarloGeordie]

But even that is missing the point totally, the point is that you'd lose the current protection of our Human Rights, Workers Rights, Minimum Pay, H&S Standards, Leave entitlements, protection against things like discrimination ect that we currently enjoy, and instead enable any serving government to do away with any and all of those rights on a whim. (very likely to happen very quickly based on the promised of the current government - never mind waiting 4 years to vote them out!).

We had rights before the EU came in you know unless EU have some kind of wizardry place. Also didn't our government introduce the living wage and not the EU and in the 50/60's our government did introduce holiday pay well before the EU were involved. More scaremongering EU are magic and we wouldn't have these if we let what a load of bull.

 

[DarloGeordie]

This argument always seems to miss some vital points to me. No one is saying that people will totally cease to buy our products/goods, only that it will cost us more to sell them, and cost us more to buy products from the EU. Note - we currently trade more with Holland than with China while something like 60% of our trade is with Europe.

I also remember reading of the 70s and rolling blackouts, 3 day weeks, mass industrial action/union threats and lots of racial tension and the rise of the National Front from low wages/prospects. Ignoring the fact that the world has changed dramatically in the last 35 years, this isnt a particularly good advert for the Outers to use

Yes the world has changed and so have we, it wouldn't go back like the 70's if we leave though. I'm saying we did ok for what we had at that time, I was a kid and we got through it like any other country did. Its a different era now and things have moved on and its about time Britain did and change the way we approach our future and let us decide what happens to our future not somebody in Brussels.