Broadly speaking, yep, I do agree with the jist of what you say. WF needs a mile and a half to be seen at his best and he sure didn't get that today so SYT is a very, very good horse but Aiden is a better PR man
Lol you either think SYT and WF are great horses or you dont.Thats the point i have been trying to make.Good horses beyond dispute,but that's as far as i think it goes. Personally with what ive seen i certainly dont nor do i expect that to change in the coming months.(incidentally i do like both horses).
Talking of great horses......I would have loved to have seen Shergar up against either of then, I realy would. Had he been in today's race he would have cruised alongside SYT, and then cruised up to Workforce with 2 to go, and said bye bye, still on the bridle ofcourse. Anyone who watched Shergar race would understand were im coming from, he was a complete and utter freak, and Sir Micheal Stoute will confirm that Workforce couldn't even make Shergar break swet, ask him if you have any doubts?
Micheal Stoute would confirm this You remind me of a certain someone named andrew Sea The Stars would have used Shergar as a pacemaker and lobbed alongside him winning by a length
Like he lobbed alongside Mastercraftsman, or was he all out to get by him? STS consistency had to be admired and he was a great, as he proved superior to everything he raced at the highest level, bit he wasn't up against anything of the class of Shergar, or even remotely close, Shergar could have delt with STS on the bridle! Sir Micheal Stoute would confirm my comments, in his own words he rated Shergar as on a different planet to anything else he has ever had, and that was only this year, doesnt that tell you everything
kiyonemakibi: I have been a loyal follower of Timeform for more years than I care to admit. Please be kind enough to spell-out the "many flaws as a system"; you really must have a very deep understanding of the Timeform organization to be able to make such a statement. For the umpteenth time I repeat that its founder, Phil Bull, and his company have done so much to bring an understanding of previously ignored aspects of horseracing to the ordinary racegoer, which certainly includes me and maybe you too, even though you probably don't realise it? Nassau/Zenyatta: Fully agree with your comments on SYT and WF. They are both terrific racehorses, and it would not be a mistake to call both of them "Superstars". Why not?
I can't be doing with Timeform either, i dont think it's atall accurate, it is just there opinion. I would have loved to have seen there opinion on the American fillie Zenyatta, she would win alot of her races by a neck, or even a short head at times, regardless of the calibre of horse, she would scrape home by a neck in grade 3 handicaps, then win the BC classic. So she probably had to run to a 30 pound higher mark, but she still looked all out in the handicap race, doesnt realy make alot of sense. It was the way she was ridden that made her impossible to rate
Interestingly if you take the two races and use it for handicapping purposes you would get around 120 mark for the winner 79 rated 3yo would carry 2lb more in eclipse 81 rated horse would be beaten by over 18 lengths with a length equalling 2lbs. 38+81=119+ Alternatively I prefer to stick to the facts ie SYT ran much faster than a handicapper.
Interesting. The 3yo would have been carrying 8.8 and the third horse in the race (also a 3yo), Carrying 9.3 would have therefore finished about 20l behind the big 2 receiving only 4lb. Given that the Eclipse couldn't have been run much faster does that make the 3rd horse in the handicap an interesting prospect?
to put the time into context using the 1m2f handicap,last year, twice over was just over 2 secs faster,but sea the stars was a massive 5.5 secs faster the year before.sri putra was much closer last year,but beaten 5.5 lengths this year meaning he was 2.68 secs faster than the handicap winner,where last year he was 2 seconds faster.
Re: 'Great' horses and whether WF and SYT are I would suggest they are. WF won the Derby and Arc which was a great achievement and ran really well yesterday. He mightn't necessarily be an all time great but he he is still a great horse! SYT ran to the same level as he did in his POW defeat, beating Sri Putra a similar distance which makes assessing him that bit more difficult. If he is a great then Rewilding is 'greater' as he beat him far and square that day... I think SYT can prove himself a great by the end of the season as yesterday in beating the Arc and Derby winner over a trip short of his best it is open to debate whether that was a 'great' performance. IMO
I like Rewilding, I'm a huge fan, but if So You Think had been ridden in the POW, the way he was in the Eclipse, he'd have won. I'm also of the opinion that SYT will still beat Workforce at a mile and a half, IF they ride him for that 2 furlong sprint. He has gears.
Debates like this are becoming increasingly tribal. What happened to enjoying horse racing and attributing kudos on performance and not connection.One gets the impression if AO'B trained the winner of every G1 from now until doomsday people like Fulkes Festival would still be curmudeonly. SYT was fantastic beating an Arc winner and Epsom course record holder and in my opinion both are well above average performers. WF had his pacemaker and team tactics which made the efforts of the winner even more meritorious. I love top class races like this and much prefer to discuss performance over personnel in an evidence based and objective manner.
having had time to look at the race again and read various comments,ive think ive got a new,well sort of new theory about workforce workforce himself as won both the arc and derby(and maiden win) when he went into the lead at the final furlong.those 3 races had large fields which enabled him to have lots of cover now ,in small fields he as now either failed to get to the lead(dante,king george) or gone to the lead too soon(eclipse).in the brigader gerald stakes ,he had a nice lead well into the last furlong also.but in that race he was only racing with 6 other horses and was taking a keen hold which may of been caused by lack of cover. i thought this during the week about him but becuase other factors seemed the reason for his losses i dismissed it but im now wondering again if he simply needs the large fields to give him cover and which also garrantues he is not left in front too soon. im not taking nothing away from SYT ,but i imagined confront setting a good pace,not mad,and gradually increasing the tempo to about 2-3f where he would fade and then the battle would commence,but workforce for me was in front way too soon and was a target for hefferman.hefferman didnt seem also in a hurry to go after workforce when he kicked on 3f out ,suggesting he knew workforce had gone too soon and all he had to do was wait for the 2f pole then get after him. i was there in 2003 when falbrav won,my heart was in my mouth though as holland pressed the button about 2 1/2f from home and his stride was shortening inside the last 100yds,you just cannot go to early at that course with its stiff finish,like ascot where so you think was shortening inside the last 1/2 furlong to be caught.in many ways workforce ran like SYT did at ascot. i believe the bc turf is a better target then the arc for SYT.he as that quickening speed to come of the last bend with a short run-in to win a race like that.think also he would win the irish champion back in his own back yard. the king george would be tricky.both stoute and godolphin would want a strong pace in that and i seriouly think SYT would not win over 1m4f of a fast pace and both stoute and godolphin would use pacemakers.you stick 2 pacemakers in from different stables and 1 is garrantued not to fluff his lines. to me both workforce,rewilding and SYT are as good as each other,top class animals that i rate equally, but are but its those small differences at the top level that means winning or losing.
Dexter Fulkes is anti irish simple as like a lot on this forum and on the old 606 they don't realise theyare doing it but a lot of racism is on this place look at the fact on the eclipse thread lots and lots of people accused aiden of running pacemakers to block other horses and cheat and someone said stoute may have known harbinger would win the king george and the lads in the yard may have laid workforce was instantly removed
I have never been a Workforce fan and didn't think for one minute he could win the Derby. However, I still maintain that travelling so fast on firm going for 12f on a switchback course like Epsom for such a big baby (as he was) was a remarkable achievement, regardless of what he beat. And I am still of the belief that, although he can win on firm ground, he is much happier with some ease in the ground. OK it wasn't a brilliant Arc he won but he was still only 3 and he did win. I'm sure he is a much stronger and developed horse (or rather colt) as a 4yo but to take on SYT on SYT's terms was a very brave (maybe stupid) risk and he ran a great race in the circumstances. Personally, I would not have raced him unless the ground was no firmer than good and preferably a bit softer than good. I think we will see a better Workforce given suitable underfoot conditions, provided he hasn't suffered from such a hard race on ground too firm. If the going is firm at Ascot I really hope he doesn't run.
Famous, as I have already told you, the comments about AOB running pacemakers is opinion and in no way racist and would have been aimed at AOB wherever he came from or any trainer doing the same. I removed the the accusation about the other point because it was libellous, which I also explained to you privately. There is no evidence of racism on this forum and never has been. If there is it will be removed.
