The Eclipse

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Fascinating contest.I'm with Workforce as i don't believe this nonsense that he is not a top class 10f colt.

Re AOB having multiple entries,i have no problem with that either...if his colts are good enough to compete then why not run them.many G1 raves would be all the poorer minus their inclusion and participation.

It is frankly staggering to hear the nonsense posted.

In the 2009 Derby B'doyle finished 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th as well as having two other runners..minus the herd STS would ahve won by 9l from 4 others.

In the 2010 renewal B'doyle colts finished 2nd,4th and 5th in a field of twelve...pacemaker 2nd.

In the 2011 Epsom showpiece B'doyle/Coolmore 1st,2nd,4th,6th.

In other words Coolmore support G1 races with muliple entries who,as just proven compete as well as turn up.

What would you have AO'B be?....someone who governs a autocratic country $115B in debt,has multiple wives,been banned for doping his endurance horses and investigated by UNICEF for abuse?

I know some on here affiliate themselves to one or another but perhaps a closer look at ones "team" never does any harm.
 
Interesting point Shergar....i was at l'town the day that G was beaten by FL and Pat Cosgrave and the blue jock went off much too fast..even backed Jim Bolgers winner of the last at 14's!..re pace makers,Godolphin have always used them and and who can forget the Lincoln winner Cataldi,useful in his own right,being used as a pace maker,just like Confront will be sacrificed tomorrow,for Juddmonte in the late eighties...i like your sh*t stirring tbh..gets things moving so to speak!!
 
Ron said:
I'm finding it difficult to come to any conclusion, other than to enjoy it. For what it's worth, here's my thinking on the race.

So You Think.

With that in mind the race was a fast time so if there were a few lengths to work on he would have been a very impressive winner 100% and that would make him difficult to oppose over 10f.


Workforce

Saturday. If the going is firm, I would be a little worried about backing Workforce. So You Think would benefit from fast going, particularly as Sandown is a stiff 10f. If the going came up softish I think Workforce would power his way up the stiff finish to win.

I can't see anything else getting into it as neither of the main two will be wanting a slowly run race with a sprint finish. If it does become that then who knows?
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Going good to firm. So what did I put my £80 on in the comp.? What a plonker.

I thought that was the only way he could beat SYT over 10f and for a moment I thought he was going to but the best 10f horse on fast going won.
 
mwildcats said:
go for some value in the form of Varian trained Sri Putra e/w @ 33/1 who finished 6 1/2 lengths behind Rewilding over at Ascot in the Prince Of Wales stakes.. having been held up towards the rear and made smooth headway on the outside and staying on for 3rd. I have since been told Sri Putra blew for 30mins after that race and will have therefore come on for that race loads...

My reasoning for this bet is that you can now get Sri Putra AP e/w for 1-2-3 placings.
We all know that there won't be 8 runners come Saturday however the 1-2-3 bet will still stand and Snow Fairy / Cape Blanco plus more will probably drop out so you could have 6 runners in the race and you are playing for 3 places.. (or 1 most likely) not a big bet for me at all. But will give me some interest.
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Just checked my account and had before I had wrote the quote (from page3) Sri Putra at a fiver e/w @ 33/1 to finish 1-2-3 Ante-Post and they have paid out for the 3 runners even tho 5 ran on the day.

So a decent return on that Yeee Haaaa
 
Ok, I will bite at that.

We saw a Derby and Arc winning colt being beaten by the best horse the southern hemisphere has produced over a middle distance trip, but apparently we didn't see a world beater?

I have read lots of insulting posts on forums about horses but that one almost takes the biscuit!

What else did you want from the race?
 
Fantastic race and I think that both of the main protagonists emerged with a great deal of credit. So You Think for his tenacity, determination and class and Workforce for running so admirably and bravely over a trip clearly short of his best.

Both horses now look to have a multitude of possible races for their next destination but wherever they go for the rest of the term surely they are going to be hard to beat in the ‘top table’ races.

Incidentally, Sir Michael’s quote re Workforce and the King George made me laugh. He’s given them advance warning of the precise ground he wants in Royal Berkshire on 23 July!
 
Dont get so het up Lol. I said it was a great race didnt i?
Ok to make you happy i will rephrase my original post...here goes.

Great race with 2 good horses.But certainly no SUPERSTARS on show today.
 
As I like looking at relative times, the last race of the day was run over 10f (presumably same course) and took 3.72 secs longer. I haven't a clue what one might make of that but it might be interesting.
 
Dancingbraveforever said:
But certainly no SUPERSTARS on show today.
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I have to disagree with this. I just cannot be having it at all.

On the contrary, i think we saw two superstars today. I am the first to say that two or more horses finishing close together usually means that neither are exceptional but i think that this occasion is one of the few exceptions. The race was perfectly run and there were no excuses for either horse. Both settled well, the pace was strong and true, Moore was able to ride exactly the race he wanted and Heffernan was able to ride his. And in the end, Workforce, a Derby and Arc winner, ran a fantastic race but came up just short against the Aussie monster So You Think, a dual Cox Plate winner. I cannot see any reason why we cannot proclaim both of these horses as 'superstars'. They may still have a little way to go to confirm their status amongst the all-time greats but i think there can be little doubt that we just saw 2 of the best horses in the world fighting out a terrific finish.

At the moment i would place these two alongside Frankel, Black Caviar and Canford Cliffs as the best in the world. The latest World Thoroughbred Rankings (1st July) have Frankel and Black Caviar at 130, Canford Cliffs and Rewilding at 127, So You Think at 126 and Workforce and Rocket Man at 125. I think So You Think has improved on his POW performance by at least a couple of pounds and Workforce can only be a pound behind him. I'd think they deserve around the 128/129 mark for today's effort and it will be interesting to see what the official verdict is.

On the existing ratings So You Think and Workforce were ranked 5th and 6th in the World and surely you can only argue that they have improved their standing after today's epic duel. Therefore it seems preposterous to argue that we saw no superstars today. To me it seems very apparent that we saw two.

A great race between two great horses. For me at least, two superstar horses on show.
 
And to add to my argument further i've just read that Timeform rank So You Think's performance second to Sea The Stars in recent times. They have given him a figure of 134 with Workforce on 133.

He is now their 3rd highest rated horse in the world after Frankel (142) and Black Caviar (135).

Oh and a quote from Matt Doyle of Skybet - "So You Think has justified his superstar status today".
 
'Superstar' is a very subjective term, and you could argue incessantly about which horses deserve such a label, but we shouldn't let such a dispute obscure the fact it was a very good race, both horses emerged with credit, and it will be interesting to see where either ones goes next, superstars or not.
 
kiyonemakibi said:
'Superstar' is a very subjective term, and you could argue incessantly about which horses deserve such a label, but we shouldn't let such a dispute obscure the fact it was a very good race, both horses emerged with credit, and it will be interesting to see where either ones goes next, superstars or not.
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I appreciate that fact, but surely two horses in the top 5 in the world qualify for the label?!
 
Zenyatta said:
I appreciate that fact, but surely two horses in the top 5 in the world qualify for the label?!
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I'm not a fan of Timeform, it just has too many flaws as a system, as does any other attempt to rate racehorses in such a fashion. Plus it leads to endless tedious arguments about why Horse X has been rated at 140, when Horse Y is 'only' 137 etc.
 
Well i seem to have opened a can of worms here with my earlier comments.

So let me make myself a little clearer than before.Does anyone think that SYT is worthy of all the massive hype,and i mean massive hype that has been bestowed on him? Was that horse today as good as the horse we expected before he first raced in Europe.In my humble opinion..no way.

Is Workforce considered to be a great horse by anybody?WF is a good horse that clearly ran over an inadequate distance today.And despite that he was JUST beaten by a horse that has been proclaimed to be a great horse,and over his optimum trip too.

So world-beater,superstar,whatever you want to call it.Did we see 2 great horses today.In my opinion,nope.
 
I broadly agree with you dancingbrave - it really depends what you mean by superstar. First and foremost it was a great race today between two very good horses.

But unless Workforce does something extraordinary over the rest of this season he will be seen as a very good Derby winner (having won the race by so far and the Arc) but not one of the greats. And SYT was all out to beat WF over a trip more suited to SYT.
 
Ron said:
As I like looking at relative times, the last race of the day was run over 10f (presumably same course) and took 3.72 secs longer. I haven't a clue what one might make of that but it might be interesting.
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Did this mean anything to anyone?
 
I am not sure on what evidence So You Think and Workforce were elevated in the Timeform ratings on today's race. Workforce was racing on fast ground that he is known not to favour and the third horse, Sri Putra was only five lengths behind the two main protagonists. Does anybody really think that he ran to a rating in the high 120s?

Let us say that the front two ran pretty much to their previous best ratings, which were 127 for So You Think and 128 for Workforce.

Whether we saw two Superstars today obviously depends on what you characterise as a Superstar. It was a good race but plaudits are very easily handed out these days so I will wait and see what happens to both horses during the rest of the season before going too over the top.
 
It was a very good race with two very good horses battling out the finish. But as has been said everything was in SYT's favour, the going, the distance and the run of the race. The race widely recognised as one of best races (if not the best race) since the war was the epic duel in the KG between Grundy and Bustino and I doubt if many would suggest the Eclipse was a better race than that and, good as those two horses were, their names do not get mentioned among the greats. Both Workforce and SYT may go on to establish themselves further but, at this point in time (in my opinion), neither can be ranked up amongst the best ever (which I guess is how some would interpret the word superstar). Using the term more loosely, it would not seem out of place to call them both superstars for the way they ran today. If they do go on to even greater things we will look back on today as the day we saw two real superstars battling it out. BG and Mill Reef were, to my mind, 2 superstars of the same era but sadly they never met over a distance that would have favoured Mill Reef. Maybe that will be the case with Workforce and SYT.
 
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