Famous is a hypocrite, he has spent the last few years writing absolute dross about the most successful jockey of all time Tony McCoy, yet when someone dares to knock one of his favourites, there racist. 
The Eclipse
- Thread starter King Shergar
- Start date
-
Please bear with us on the new site integration and fixing any known bugs over the coming days. If you can not log in please try resetting your password and check your spam box. If you have tried these steps and are still struggling email [email protected] with your username/registered email address
-
How about we let it drop. I think I've clarified the situation. Pouring petrol on what could be a fire, will create a fire. Hopefully the air is cleared and we can all get back to enjoying the forum. Have a good evening all.
Oh dear. So I'm a curmudgeonly anti-Irish doom- merchant!
On each of those:
Curmudgeon - GUILTY! (just ask my wife, friends and work colleagues).
Anti-Irish - ridiculous. My dad was Irish and I grew up in a very strong closely-knit Irish Catholic cummunity in Lambourn. So you can't get me on that one!
Doom-merchant: afraid you've got a point there.
To clarify my thoughts on the Eclipse. It was a great race between two very good horses. But please don't ask me to agree both are greats at this stage.
On each of those:
Curmudgeon - GUILTY! (just ask my wife, friends and work colleagues).
Anti-Irish - ridiculous. My dad was Irish and I grew up in a very strong closely-knit Irish Catholic cummunity in Lambourn. So you can't get me on that one!
Doom-merchant: afraid you've got a point there.
To clarify my thoughts on the Eclipse. It was a great race between two very good horses. But please don't ask me to agree both are greats at this stage.
Looks like ive missed am eventful day, a canfull of worms have been opened! SYT lived up to his hype and well done to him. But I still think rewilding still would have beaten him if ridden like he was yday. And beating workforce over 10F I dont think so!
Thanks for the link Zenyatta. It is an excellent article and I agree with the gist that So You Think has so far done his reputation no harm at all but needs to win a KG or Arc to cement it. I feel the Eclipse was set up for him in terms of the distance and Workforce giving him something to aim at up the straight. I was a bit disappointed Walker bought the line about lack of work before the POW, though.
Dexter - no offence taken! I know you are a strong supporter of Coolmore and have absolutely no problem with that.
Dexter - no offence taken! I know you are a strong supporter of Coolmore and have absolutely no problem with that.
What a wonderful bit of writing. Thanks for the link Zanyatta. There is one small point I'd like to take issue with though. The reason that Australia has not sent middle distance to the Northern hemisphere, is not because we lack the talent, it's more that the pickings here are rich enough for owners not to take the chance of defeat in the north. Coupled to this, is the high percentage of horses that are gelded out here. The main reason for shipping horses north, is the breeding game. Thankfully, we're getting away from taking the knife to anything that proves a slight handful.
And Now that So You Think has broken the ice, maybe others will also take up the challenge. The horse left here with a load of hype behind him, the press built him up into something special, almost to the status of another Phar Lap. Nothing could be further from the truth. We've had better. So You Think won two Cox Plates, Kingston Town won three of them on the trot. Throw in the AJC and Queensland Derbies, a Guineas, a Sydney Cup and a slew of other G1 wins, and you'll begin to get the picture. Of course he was a freak, but we've had a heap of other horses who I feel sure would have been up to European G1 status.
If it hadn't been for the horse's prospect as a possible high priced stallion, So You Think would probably still have spent most of his career in Australia. And we'd still be saying that the Southern product just isn't up to UK standards, they'd be dismissed out of hand. The fact that SYT is now on show, is the reason others are starting to ask if others are up to the job. Before 2002 nobody outside the Antipodes, thought that we could produce world class sprinters. Choisir showed otherwise. We felt confident that we had the horse flesh to win, but we never really got around to testing the waters.
I have no doubt that we have the talent to regularly win G1 middle distance races in Europe, and if it takes the likes of Coolmore to prove the point, then more power to them. Let those with forethought, reap the rewards.
P.S. If Coolmore or Godolphin desire the musings of an aged racing fan, please feel free to contact me here, any time, night or day.
And Now that So You Think has broken the ice, maybe others will also take up the challenge. The horse left here with a load of hype behind him, the press built him up into something special, almost to the status of another Phar Lap. Nothing could be further from the truth. We've had better. So You Think won two Cox Plates, Kingston Town won three of them on the trot. Throw in the AJC and Queensland Derbies, a Guineas, a Sydney Cup and a slew of other G1 wins, and you'll begin to get the picture. Of course he was a freak, but we've had a heap of other horses who I feel sure would have been up to European G1 status.
If it hadn't been for the horse's prospect as a possible high priced stallion, So You Think would probably still have spent most of his career in Australia. And we'd still be saying that the Southern product just isn't up to UK standards, they'd be dismissed out of hand. The fact that SYT is now on show, is the reason others are starting to ask if others are up to the job. Before 2002 nobody outside the Antipodes, thought that we could produce world class sprinters. Choisir showed otherwise. We felt confident that we had the horse flesh to win, but we never really got around to testing the waters.
I have no doubt that we have the talent to regularly win G1 middle distance races in Europe, and if it takes the likes of Coolmore to prove the point, then more power to them. Let those with forethought, reap the rewards.
P.S. If Coolmore or Godolphin desire the musings of an aged racing fan, please feel free to contact me here, any time, night or day.
I actually agree with that argument though. I thought to myself that he ran like he needed it (or didn't stay but that was hardly an option) before any of the comments by Aiden O'Brien. I appreciate that others think it a load of rubbish but it must be remembered that his two previous efforts were little more than exercise canters. In my eyes there can be little doubt that he improved significantly from the POW to the Eclipse. I would think that he was at least a couple of pounds better, as the official ratings would support.
I can fully understand why people would be sceptical but that 'excuse' fitted in with what i saw and what i thought, and therefore i was/am prepared to accept it.
Have to say I think using the reliable yardstick of Sri Putra that SYT performed to a very similar level in both Eclipse and POW (in actual fact he finished further ahead of Sri Putra in POW).
I think however that SYT WILL provide a performance before the end of the year that will make us go 'wooo'... I don't think that was him at his tip top best on Saturday. Over further, I'd fancy WF to reverse form, I think 10f may be his trip.
Yes however, Sri Putra came on tons for the POW and therefore SYT ran a better race in the eclipse even though the distances where shorter.
Sandown is reknowned for cramping finishing distances. I think they mentioned it on Channel 4 but i can't remember why! Probably something to do with the uphill finish, but i would have thought that would have extended them . . .
It is more to do with the visual impression he left. He finished the race very strongly at Sandown and was out on his feet at Ascot. Also i think the Eclipse was Sri Putra's primary target for the season so it is possible that he found some improvement as well. (Edit: As Wildcats suggests)
On the bare form the two runs look very similar, but my visual impression was that he improved at least a little from the POW.
It is more to do with the visual impression he left. He finished the race very strongly at Sandown and was out on his feet at Ascot. Also i think the Eclipse was Sri Putra's primary target for the season so it is possible that he found some improvement as well. (Edit: As Wildcats suggests)
On the bare form the two runs look very similar, but my visual impression was that he improved at least a little from the POW.
I'm not convinced we can use Sri Putra as a reliable form guide based on the assumption that he didn't improve from the POW. Maybe he did. To my mind SYT was almost certain to improve and therefore it could be reasoned that Sri Putra did also.
I think we can answer some of the questions about Sri Putra.
After again going over the vids, ( I seem to have been doing it all night) the tempos of the PoW and Eclipse seem to hold the answer. In the PoW, at the 2f SP was about 3 lengths off in a race that had a more moderate pace early on. He was dropped big time by both Rewilding and So You Think over the last 2 furlongs. He just couldn't match the change of gears of the other two.
In the Eclipse, as we all know, the pace was much more true. Workforce took it up at the half mile and looked to make it a test of strength. By the time they had reached the 3 pole, Sri Putra was 2.5-3 lengths off. The quality of the two big guns stretched that lead to about 5 lengths at the furlong. Then he stayed on.
If the race is a sit and sprint, he has no chance, they drop him quickly. If they turn it into a test, he fares better. Because the tempo suited him in the Eclipse, he looked a better type. He needs the pace on. For mine, the Eclipse run was far better.
I think this is one of those times when the ratings can be called into question. On paper the end result is pretty much the same, but the Eclipse run showed the true abilities of the horse, not the PoW. (yeah I know, the end result is the same so the ratings should be the same.) But try telling that to the punter who can often do his dough in situations such as these. And what of the poor soul who depends on the ratings next time out?
After again going over the vids, ( I seem to have been doing it all night) the tempos of the PoW and Eclipse seem to hold the answer. In the PoW, at the 2f SP was about 3 lengths off in a race that had a more moderate pace early on. He was dropped big time by both Rewilding and So You Think over the last 2 furlongs. He just couldn't match the change of gears of the other two.
In the Eclipse, as we all know, the pace was much more true. Workforce took it up at the half mile and looked to make it a test of strength. By the time they had reached the 3 pole, Sri Putra was 2.5-3 lengths off. The quality of the two big guns stretched that lead to about 5 lengths at the furlong. Then he stayed on.
If the race is a sit and sprint, he has no chance, they drop him quickly. If they turn it into a test, he fares better. Because the tempo suited him in the Eclipse, he looked a better type. He needs the pace on. For mine, the Eclipse run was far better.
I think this is one of those times when the ratings can be called into question. On paper the end result is pretty much the same, but the Eclipse run showed the true abilities of the horse, not the PoW. (yeah I know, the end result is the same so the ratings should be the same.) But try telling that to the punter who can often do his dough in situations such as these. And what of the poor soul who depends on the ratings next time out?
i thought he ran to his ascot form ,3 from 5 in that race go up to a personal best? workforce sits uncomfortable for me ,he as ran 2lb better for losing over a trip that we aint sure about and also ran different to his usual style of racing? sri putra also gets slightly closer?im trying to imagine SYT not running,would the rpr of workforce really of bettered his arc run for beating sri puta by 5l? it doesnt matter to me i think they are both outstanding horses as well as rewilding and by the end of the season this rating may be justified but at the moment i think it was on the generous side.
This debate gets more and more interesting with very good reasoning.
I'm not sure if I've got this right but it seems to me that:
If Sri Putra hasn't improved then neither has SYT
If SYT improved then so did Sri Putra
So, if Sri Putra hasn't improved, AOB's reasoning for SYT's POW defeat is flawed.
Where does that leave WF? I think it leaves him in exactly the same place. Regardless of anything else, in a 10f race on fast ground in a fast time his run was very encouraging for a (presumably still improving) 4yo running over a distance 2f short of his optimum distance. I don't think there is a way he could ever beat SYT over 10f unless, maybe, it was soft with an uphill finish and I would be very surprised to see them meet over 12f. So I can't see them running against each other again, unless the connections of SYT are brave enough to take on WF on WF's terms.
Fascinating.
I'm not sure if I've got this right but it seems to me that:
If Sri Putra hasn't improved then neither has SYT
If SYT improved then so did Sri Putra
So, if Sri Putra hasn't improved, AOB's reasoning for SYT's POW defeat is flawed.
Where does that leave WF? I think it leaves him in exactly the same place. Regardless of anything else, in a 10f race on fast ground in a fast time his run was very encouraging for a (presumably still improving) 4yo running over a distance 2f short of his optimum distance. I don't think there is a way he could ever beat SYT over 10f unless, maybe, it was soft with an uphill finish and I would be very surprised to see them meet over 12f. So I can't see them running against each other again, unless the connections of SYT are brave enough to take on WF on WF's terms.
Fascinating.