CTWD publishes its draft vision, aims and objectives

[DMD]

So does this trust basically boil down to a group of fans create a trust, then regardless of support or numbers, gets to put one of their ranks, presumably the chairman on to the board where they can affect decisions around the clubs running?

At no cost?

So the person who has actually created a successful business and club technically gives a percentage away to a group?

Don't the trust have to raise funds and actually buy a share in the club?

I've asked for an idiots guide to it, but haven't seen one yet, but even if it was all democratic, wouldn't the place on the board be a non-voting one? So other than seeing what goes on at the board meetings, how would it differ from sending an email?

If I was an owner, I'd put a lot of effort into making sure I heard and listened to all fans. There's a danger in hearing the ones making the most noise, when bigger numbers could be walking away in silence as a consequence.

The key to this is who is deemed to be representative of fans.

 

[balkan tiger]

the LondonStockExchange is the way forward for 2 reasons.
1. AA won't have to pay anymore.
2. you CTWD *'flies' will finally have a say when you have shares.

* I call you flies cos you make a lot of noise and thats about it.

Listing a football club on the stock exchange, good discussion point. Man united and the Gaziers (sp) de-listing comes to mind, the small shareholding fans who saw their shares wiped out, worthless after Glazier managed to get hold of more than 75% i think.

 

[originallambrettaman]

I've asked for an idiots guide to it, but haven't seen one yet, but even if it was all democratic, wouldn't the place on the board be a non-voting one? So other than seeing what goes on at the board meetings, how would it differ from sending an email?

If I was an owner, I'd put a lot of effort into making sure I heard and listened to all fans. There's a danger in hearing the ones making the most noise, when bigger numbers could be walking away in silence as a consequence.

The key to this is who is deemed to be representative of fans.

Here's something approaching an idiots guide to trusts...

http://www.lawinsport.com/blog/snr-...e-governance-the-role-of-the-supporters-trust

Any trust with a shareholding in excess of 5% does get voting rights, they are also involved in overseeing all decisions made by the club, so the fans are always kept informed of what is going on at the club and you can't get surprises with name changes, ticket prices, badges changes, seat moves etc.

The individual appointed by the trust does not make the decisions on their own, their role is to keep all the fans informed and to act in their interest and in accordance with their wishes.

 

[DMD]

Here's something approaching an idiots guide to trusts...

http://www.lawinsport.com/blog/snr-...e-governance-the-role-of-the-supporters-trust

Any trust with a shareholding in excess of 5% does get voting rights, they are also involved in overseeing all decisions made by the club, so the fans are always kept informed of what is going on at the club and you can't get surprises with name changes, ticket prices, badges changes, seat moves etc.

The individual appointed by the trust does not make the decisions on their own, their role is to keep all the fans informed and to act in their interest and in accordance with their wishes.

Assuming a club is willing, how much would a 5% share cost? Would that commit the trust to the liabilities if the share value dropped? Does the club get a say in the process of how the trust rep is selected?

Why would a club do that over fan group meetings, and are these yours or CTWD views?

Does it need 5% to get 'voting rights' as the article suggests the voting rights are as a general shareholder, with the 5% meaning resolutions can be submitted to the board.

Some years ago, fans bought shares in Hull City, presumably these are no longer valid?

 

[Amin Arrears]

Here's something approaching an idiots guide to trusts...

http://www.lawinsport.com/blog/snr-...e-governance-the-role-of-the-supporters-trust

Any trust with a shareholding in excess of 5% does get voting rights, they are also involved in overseeing all decisions made by the club, so the fans are always kept informed of what is going on at the club and you can't get surprises with name changes, ticket prices, badges changes, seat moves etc.

The individual appointed by the trust does not make the decisions on their own, their role is to keep all the fans informed and to act in their interest and in accordance with their wishes.

The funny thing is, that says the fan on the board is there to keep other fans informed, but the fan on the board is sworn to secrecy and barely a frigging thing is ever allowed to leave that boardroom, so it's futile in that respect.

 

[originallambrettaman]

Assuming a club is willing, how much would a 5% share cost? Would that commit the trust to the liabilities if the share value dropped?

Why would a club do that over fan group meetings, and are these yours or CTWD views?

I've no idea what it would cost, that would be up to what the owner would accept and any shareholder of any business can see those shares rise and fall in value(including going into negative equity).

Fan group meetings are just with staff of the club, people who are not in a position to make decisions, a place on the board gives you direct access to those who actually run the club and the ability to vote on their proposals, it's a completely different thing.

These are my views, though my last post wasn't an opinion, it was just some facts, so it doesn't really matter who posted it.

 

[Amin Arrears]

Assuming a club is willing, how much would a 5% share cost? Would that commit the trust to the liabilities if the share value dropped? Does the club get a say in the process of how the trust rep is selected?

Why would a club do that over fan group meetings, and are these yours or CTWD views?

I'd guess 5% will cost around £3,250,000.27

 

[originallambrettaman]

The funny thing is, that says the fan on the board is there to keep other fans informed, but the fan on the board is sworn to secrecy and barely a frigging thing is ever allowed to leave that boardroom, so it's futile in that respect.

That's really the point, things could no longer be done in secret, there may be some things that are commercially sensitive and couldn't be revealed, but fundamental things like the club name, kit colour, badge, grounds etc couldn't be changed without everybody knowing about it in advance.

 

[DMD]

I've no idea what it would cost, that would be up to what the owner would accept and any shareholder of any business can see those shares rise and fall in value(including going into negative equity).

Fan group meetings are just with staff of the club, people who are not in a position to make decisions, a place on the board gives you direct access to those who actually run the club and the ability to vote on their proposals, it's a completely different thing.

These are my views, though my last post wasn't an opinion, it was just some facts, so it doesn't really matter who posted it.

At 5%, how meaningful would that vote be, given the financial risk to investors?

If a club wanted to do something radical to increase funds and that needed to be kept under wraps as long as possible, but that the supporters would possibly be against, would a trust be bound to the supporters, or the board? Any call to arms would kill the clubs proposals by making them public, but would possibly breach committee rules.



PS, for clarity, can we have CTWD's views?

 

[PattyNchips2]

Trusts are indeed able to raise funds to buy a shareholding in a club, if the owner if is amenable.

heh good luck with that, this is AA remember!

 

[originallambrettaman]

At 5%, how meaningful would that vote be, given the financial risk to investors?

If a club wanted to do something radical to increase funds and that needed to be kept under wraps as long as possible, but that the supporters would possibly be against, would a trust be bound to the supporters, or the board? Any call to arms would kill the clubs proposals by making them public, but would possibly breach committee rules.



PS, for clarity, can we have CTWD's views?

These things are not set in stone, different trusts have different arrangements with different owners, so I don't think you're likely to get the definitive answer you're seeking, but I'll leave those working on the City Till We Die trust constitution to answer the more detailed questions, once they see this(they are far more knowledgeable in this area than I am).

 

[originallambrettaman]

heh good luck with that, this is AA remember!

I was talking about trusts in general, rather than Hull City specifically and has already been stated, there's no realistic chance of this happening under the current owner.

 

[balkan tiger]

I was talking about trusts in general, rather than Hull City specifically and has already been stated, there's no realistic chance of this happening under the current owner.

Even though it was his idea.

 

[DMD]

These things are not set in stone, different trusts have different arrangements with different owners, so I don't think you're likely to get the definitive answer you're seeking, but I'll leave those working on the City Till We Die trust constitution to answer the more detailed questions, once they see this(they are far more knowledgeable in this area than I am).

Ta. Given it's a key element of the new group, I think it's important the position as it would be for Hull City is clear.

 

[Fez]

I would have thought that, as the Trust is yet to fully evolve and there does not appear to be any communication between the Trust and Hull City board, many of these questions are either academic or premature; the remainder either common-sense or at most, easily found through Google. It may not be the case, but this questioning comes across (to me) as no more than an exercise in getting folk to jump through pointless hoops. I may be wrong, but it is the impression it leaves with me.

 

[DMD]

I would have thought that, as the Trust is yet to fully evolve and there does not appear to be any communication between the Trust and Hull City board, many of these questions are either academic or premature; the remainder either common-sense or at most, easily found through Google. It may not be the case, but this questioning comes across (to me) as no more than an exercise in getting folk to jump through pointless hoops. I may be wrong, but it is the impression it leaves with me.

You are.

 

[Fez]

You are.

Perhaps you should get that clarified by OLM before you form that opinion.

 

[DMD]

Perhaps you should get that clarified by OLM before you form that opinion.

What on earth are you babbling on about now?

There are several ways that a fans group can have an input into a club, and each of those has several options within them. CTWD are proposing a method that they have considered and prefer.

As a member, I'm just interested in knowing what that involves and seeing how it compares to other options. I'd expect they'd have considered these anyway in deciding the proposed actions, so the answers shouldn't be onerous.

Surely, that can only make the ultimate decision and actions more robust?

 

[renegadetiger]

heh good luck with that, this is AA remember!

He's selling up though.

Isn't he?

 

[Fez]

What on earth are you babbling on about now?

There are several ways that a fans group can have an input into a club, and each of those has several options within them. CTWD are proposing a method that they have considered and prefer.

As a member, I'm just interested in knowing what that involves and seeing how it compares to other options. I'd expect they'd have considered these anyway in deciding the proposed actions, so the answers shouldn't be onerous.

Surely, that can only make the ultimate decision and actions more robust?

Not babbling about anything, simply wondering why you keep asking the same questions, when the answers have either already been given, easily answered with a simple search or it is evident no answer is yet available.

Perhaps you can give us an idiots guide to the alternatives, or a simple list for searching?