O/T Scottish Independence

[DevAdvocate]

Was discussing the military aspect of this with my mate in Cyprus last week, in the event of a 'Yes' vote.

He said they've asked for a certain amount of HM Forces kit to be handed over including EIGHT Eurofighter Typhoons, FFS, yeah just take em lads, off you go.

Independent: adj: not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.

Huge amounts of kit, machinery and military transport will be making it's way down the M6 and out of Scotland this week, as well as naval vessels and some aircraft (not on the M6 though). This is a tactic Cameron has had in place to safeguard against a no vote.

It would be like watching somebody come and take the locks off your doors and windows at night, only to put them back the next morning if you promised to behave yourself and toe the line.

Did Scots people's taxes not go towards Military gear then? I'll be looking for a refund in that case.

Oh, and in case you are interested, an agreement has already been reached in principle by both sides, Scotland will get it's fair share of UK Military assets.

 

[DevAdvocate]

I am more concerned at who will finance the split if Scotland do decide to go their own way.
You can guarantee that it will be the English tax payer who will end up footing the bill.

 

[Sidthemackem]

What happens to Berwick Rangers BTW?

Just a thought...

 

[DevAdvocate]

What happens to Berwick Rangers BTW?

Just a thought...

There's a thought, Cameron never even mentioned them the bastard.

 

[TankMarvin]

Did Scots people's taxes not go towards Military gear then? I'll be looking for a refund in that case.

Oh, and in case you are interested, an agreement has already been reached in principle by both sides, Scotland will get it's fair share of UK Military assets.

Has it ? Did Salmond tell you that ?

I can understand Scotland getting a representative share if the UK was being broken up and assets were being divided, but the crucial difference here is that Scotland may choose to leave, to walk away. Not sure that gives Scotland the same entitlement.
Also, depends what "fair share" of assets means. Did someone write down 8x Typhoons, 6x helicopters... Salmond already seems to have an agreement on absolutely everything he'll need to negotiate for.... what a guy. Or what a liar.

 

[Blunham Mackem]

Did Scots people's taxes not go towards Military gear then? I'll be looking for a refund in that case.

Oh, and in case you are interested, an agreement has already been reached in principle by both sides, Scotland will get it's fair share of UK Military assets.

Edinburgh Castle is full of claymores and swords. You can keep them. Should keep the Norwegians off your back.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

Did Scots people's taxes not go towards Military gear then? I'll be looking for a refund in that case.

Oh, and in case you are interested, an agreement has already been reached in principle by both sides, Scotland will get it's fair share of UK Military assets.

Refunded on debt acquired as a result of not being able to afford to pay for the kit upfront? I thought you didn't want a share of the debt.

No such agreement has been reached at all, The Scots have proposed to any current serving personnel that they are welcome into a new Scottish Regiment in the event of a 'Yes' vote. This has been met with hostility from all corners of the military, this is from the horses mouth of a serving Brigadier who has been privy to the 'plan'.

The military personnel are concerned that current servicemen will be jumping ship to a 'cushy number' where they won't be involved in any conflict yet promised the same rewards, pension schemes and so on.

My brother also serves in the RAF at Marham and has confirmed to me that 'kit' from Leuchars has arrived on their runway.

 

[DevAdvocate]

Has it ? Did Salmond tell you that ?

I can understand Scotland getting a representative share if the UK was being broken up and assets were being divided, but the crucial difference here is that Scotland may choose to leave, to walk away. Not sure that gives Scotland the same entitlement.
Also, depends what "fair share" of assets means. Did someone write down 8x Typhoons, 6x helicopters... Salmond already seems to have an agreement on absolutely everything he'll need to negotiate for.... what a guy. Or what a liar.

Do you honestly think it makes a difference how we gain Independence? Whether we’ve walked away or been kicked out of the Union, Scots are still entitled to a share of any assets that they have contributed to through their taxes. We may not get 8 Typhoons or 3,500 troops and 4 Minesweepers but there’s no harm in aiming high is there? After all, we don’t want any of the Trident Missiles and they cost a fair few quid.

And no, Salmond did not tell me this either.

Refunded on debt acquired as a result of not being able to afford to pay for the kit upfront? I thought you didn't want a share of the debt.

No such agreement has been reached at all, The Scots have proposed to any current serving personnel that they are welcome into a new Scottish Regiment in the event of a 'Yes' vote. This has been met with hostility from all corners of the military, this is from the horses mouth of a serving Brigadier who has been privy to the 'plan'.

The military personnel are concerned that current servicemen will be jumping ship to a 'cushy number' where they won't be involved in any conflict yet promised the same rewards, pension schemes and so on.

My brother also serves in the RAF at Marham and has confirmed to me that 'kit' from Leuchars has arrived on their runway.

You can’t claim to speak for the Military and what their feelings are i’m afraid, your knowledge of Scots troops and their feelings would be guesswork at best, but I’ll tell you through experience that plenty of Scots Soldiers – especially the ones whose units were basically disbanded – would be more than happy to join any Scots Defence Force if it meant the rebirth of the Scottish Units who were consigned to the dustbin of history.

 

[TankMarvin]

Do you honestly think it makes a difference how we gain Independence? Whether we’ve walked away or been kicked out of the Union, Scots are still entitled to a share of any assets that they have contributed to through their taxes. We may not get 8 Typhoons or 3,500 troops and 4 Minesweepers but there’s no harm in aiming high is there? After all, we don’t want any of the Trident Missiles and they cost a fair few quid.

Yes of course it does.

Try resigning from your job see if you get to take your desk, chair and PC with you. Ask if they will keep paying you for a few extra months and see if you can negotiate your health cover continuing after you'd left....

 

[MrRAWhite]

Can't see Scotland being allowed to keep ant meaningful British Army weaponry..

 

[DevAdvocate]

Yes of course it does.

Try resigning from your job see if you get to take your desk, chair and PC with you. Ask if they will keep paying you for a few extra months and see if you can negotiate your health cover continuing after you'd left....

Independence is not like resigning from a job though is it? It's more like a divorce, and in any divorce even the party who is at fault gets a share.

Can't see Scotland being allowed to keep ant meaningful British Army weaponry..

Why not, Scots Taxpayers contribute approx £5bn a year to defence spending.

 

[TankMarvin]

Independence is not like resigning from a job though is it? It's more like a divorce, and in any divorce even the party who is at fault gets a share.

A fair share ?

 

[DevAdvocate]

A fair share ?

That's to be negotiated in the event of a Yes vote, as I said already, there's no harm in asking. And you get to keep Trident...eventually, which is about the biggest cost in terms of defence spending.

 

[Somebodys pinched my sombrero]

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...FUYVP6gKIj1OYj6gOAD&tbm=isch&ved=0CCMQMygFMAU

Comm ~ you'll have to sort this out for me.

 

[TankMarvin]

That's to be negotiated in the event of a Yes vote, as I said already, there's no harm in asking. And you get to keep Trident...eventually, which is about the biggest cost in terms of defence spending.

So the amount of hardware hasn't been agreed as you claimed earlier ?

Between 2008 and 2012 the annual cost of maintaining and operating Trident was £2.0-£2.4bn (around 5-6% of the total defence budget). Last year MOD also confirmed that the lead up costs of a replacement system would be around £500m this year and up to £800m per year later this decade on top of the £2.0-£2.4bn being spent on the current system. Once operational, the replacement system would have the same costs as the current system - So typically around £2.0-£2.4bn, but could be as high as £3.4bn during the transition from one system to the other.

MOD spending on personnel, including pay, NI, pensions and allowances was £12.6bn in 2012 falling to £11.3bn in 2013 (around £75,000 per head).

Even "other costs" (including purchasing consumables, professional fees, medical and legal costs and rentals under operating leases) in the MODs figures for 2012 was greater than Trident at £3.8bn

According to figures from the MOD, DWP and ONS the cost of maintaining Trident is less than 1.5% of the UK's Benefits expenditure.

 

[Tel (they/them)]

You can’t claim to speak for the Military and what their feelings are i’m afraid, your knowledge of Scots troops and their feelings would be guesswork at best, but I’ll tell you through experience that plenty of Scots Soldiers – especially the ones whose units were basically disbanded – would be more than happy to join any Scots Defence Force if it meant the rebirth of the Scottish Units who were consigned to the dustbin of history.

You can't claim to speak for Scotland just because you know a minority of them and you happen to be one. The offering to join the Scottish Regiment was extended to all British Military personnel, not just Jocks.

Your knowledge of Scots troops and their feelings would be guesswork at best as well, you don't know hardly any, a handful at best.

The regiment probably wouldn't mean a 'rebirth' of anything either, it would be a unit that had no identity at first, it's 'defence' capabilities would be absolutely undermined by the fact that the UK Armed Forces would be still having first say on the airspace above the British Isles and therefore you would have no airspace authority; If the Russians came peeking over the Barents and into the North Sea, do you think the Brits are going to trust your new pack of inbetweeners to sort them out? Nay pal.

The only other solution is to force people into the Scottish Military from the current Regiments, good luck with that one in the ECHR!

 

[Tel (they/them)]

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Comm ~ you'll have to sort this out for me.

Comm would seem otherwise occupied, probably up to the hinge end in some Thai maid no doubt.

 

[DevAdvocate]

You can't claim to speak for Scotland just because you know a minority of them and you happen to be one. The offering to join the Scottish Regiment was extended to all British Military personnel, not just Jocks.

Your knowledge of Scots troops and their feelings would be guesswork at best as well, you don't know hardly any, a handful at best.

The regiment probably wouldn't mean a 'rebirth' of anything either, it would be a unit that had no identity at first, it's 'defence' capabilities would be absolutely undermined by the fact that the UK Armed Forces would be still having first say on the airspace above the British Isles and therefore you would have no airspace authority; If the Russians came peeking over the Barents and into the North Sea, do you think the Brits are going to trust your new pack of inbetweeners to sort them out? Nay pal.

The only other solution is to force people into the Scottish Military from the current Regiments, good luck with that one in the ECHR!

Now you are not only indulging in guesswork but sweeping generalisations too. I never at any point said I can speak for anyone, least of all for "Scotland" . You don't know me, you know nothing about me so best keep your guesswork to yourself

 

[DevAdvocate]

So the amount of hardware hasn't been agreed as you claimed earlier ?

.

I never claimed that at all:

Oh, and in case you are interested, an agreement has already been reached in principle by both sides, Scotland will get it's fair share of UK Military assets.

There, have another read.

 

[Billy Death]

That's to be negotiated in the event of a Yes vote, as I said already, there's no harm in asking. And you get to keep Trident...eventually, which is about the biggest cost in terms of defence spending.

True & there's no harm in telling you lot to **** off either.