WAR! What is it good for?

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Archers Road said:
You’re right, people probably aren’t seeing all that.

Perhaps because it’s hard to look beyond the mountains of dead bodies and bombed out homes, schools and hospitals.
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Numbers are startling, higher estimates are 60k dead or missing.
 
Archers Road said:
You’re right, people probably aren’t seeing all that.

Perhaps because it’s hard to look beyond the mountains of dead bodies and bombed out homes, schools and hospitals.
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People see a combination of what there’s available to see and what they want to see. Those who have fully bought into the cult of Palestinianism have largely done so as they see it as representing being anti-establishment rather than any sort of vaguely informed view of what’s actually happening.
 
Horny 4 Hamas said:
People see a combination of what there’s available to see and what they want to see. Those who have fully bought into the cult of Palestinianism have largely done so as they see it as representing being anti-establishment rather than any sort of vaguely informed view of what’s actually happening.
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I agree that many in the West view this as an anti-establishment, anti-american protest.

I know some who have tagged along a protest here in Norway who don't know the first thing about Palestine.

Some actually use it as an anti-government protest in general as opposed to actually regarding bombings.
 
Or people are just seeing it as Israel being bullies.

What Israel are doing is pretty much what Russia are doing. Except we support one but don't support the other.
 
BobbyD said:
Or people are just seeing it as Israel being bullies.

What Israel are doing is pretty much what Russia are doing. Except we support one but don't support the other.
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'We' support whatever we perceive to be in our political interests.

There is zero moral analysis in any foreign policy decision. 'Bullies' and 'victims' are words that don't enter the discussion.

Ukraine and Israel are seen as important regional allies. It is in 'our' political interests to support them.

End of.




P.S. There is actually very little similarity between the two conflicts, aside from the obvious David v Goliath parallels.
 
Horny 4 Hamas said:
People see a combination of what there’s available to see and what they want to see. Those who have fully bought into the cult of Palestinianism have largely done so as they see it as representing being anti-establishment rather than any sort of vaguely informed view of what’s actually happening.
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If 'cult of Palestinianism' means advocating that the indigenous people displaced by the creation of modern Israel have an equal right (no more, no less) to their own sovereign 'homeland' then yes, I support that 100% - give me any logocal reason why I shouldn't...

I'd find it difficult to support Israel's right to exist (which I do) otherwise ... as I suspect most reasonably minded, non-affiliated, people also would ...
 
Horny 4 Hamas said:
They aren’t seeing the unprecedented levels those Jews are going to, at greater risk to themselves, to minimise civilian deaths in a uniquely difficult situation due to Hamas’ tactics to do so. They aren’t seeing the daily rocket attacks from Lebanon or the thousands displaced as a result. They aren’t seeing the network of tunnels underneath every inch of Gaza which endanger every person living there and need to be got rid of for this to end.

More likely they do see all of that but just don’t care.
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The majority of the 40,000 dead Palestinianis had nothing to do with the tunnel network ... over 30,000 are women and children - to try and justify that level of civilian casualties on the basis that the tunnels need to be destroyed is quite ludicrous...
 
FosseFilberto said:
The majority of the 40,000 dead Palestinianis had nothing to do with the tunnel network ... over 30,000 are women and children - to try and justify that level of civilian casualties on the basis that the tunnels need to be destroyed is quite ludicrous...
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Civilians tend to die in wars, especially when their own side needs them dead for PR purposes. No one really knows the numbers once fighters and those aiding fighters are accounted for, natural deaths, those killed by Hamas etc. As with every other point you make, this war really can’t be judged by the norms we associate with others no matter how hard you try.
 
FosseFilberto said:
If 'cult of Palestinianism' means advocating that the indigenous people displaced by the creation of modern Israel have an equal right (no more, no less) to their own sovereign 'homeland' then yes, I support that 100% - give me any logocal reason why I shouldn't...

I'd find it difficult to support Israel's right to exist (which I do) otherwise ... as I suspect most reasonably minded, non-affiliated, people also would ...
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On the first paragraph it doesn’t mean that.

On the second I don’t care if you support it or not.
 
Horny 4 Hamas said:
Civilians tend to die in wars, especially when their own side needs them dead for PR purposes. No one really knows the numbers once fighters and those aiding fighters are accounted for, natural deaths, those killed by Hamas etc. As with every other point you make, this war really can’t be judged by the norms we associate with others no matter how hard you try.
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The numbers of dead women and children have been independently substantiated by the WHO - the only uncertainty is how many more lie under the rubble ... but you are right in one respect - in no other modern war has a whole autonomous jurisdiction been systematically destroyed to this degree and had such a high percentage of its' civilian population displaced ...
 
FosseFilberto said:
The numbers of dead women and children have been independently substantiated by the WHO - the only uncertainty is how many more lie under the rubble ... but you are right in one respect - in no other modern war has a whole autonomous jurisdiction been systematically destroyed to this degree and had such a high percentage of its' civilian population displaced ...
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A shame it was all so avoidable. Hopefully those who aided and cheered on October 7th, there and here, still think it was all worth it.
 
Citizen Kane. said:
'We' support whatever we perceive to be in our political interests.

There is zero moral analysis in any foreign policy decision. 'Bullies' and 'victims' are words that don't enter the discussion.

Ukraine and Israel are seen as important regional allies. It is in 'our' political interests to support them.

End of.




P.S. There is actually very little similarity between the two conflicts, aside from the obvious David v Goliath parallels.
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That, and they can both be read as continuations of Cold War geopolitics.
 
Horny 4 Hamas said:
A shame it was all so avoidable. Hopefully those who aided and cheered on October 7th, there and here, still think it was all worth it.
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Nothing is 'avoidable' whilst Israel continues its' illegal (under International Law) occupation and settlement expansionism in the West Bank ... whilst that situation continues there is always going to be armed struggle ...

There are now 196 illegal settlements in the West Bank... and, as recently as July this year, the UN opined that Israel should cease establishing new illegal settlements and evacuate all existing settlers ...
 
Citizen Kane. said:
'We' support whatever we perceive to be in our political interests.

There is zero moral analysis in any foreign policy decision. 'Bullies' and 'victims' are words that don't enter the discussion.

Ukraine and Israel are seen as important regional allies. It is in 'our' political interests to support them.

End of.




P.S. There is actually very little similarity between the two conflicts, aside from the obvious David v Goliath parallels.
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yup, thats geopolitics for you in which state our nation will support. With regards to the bully thing it was more why the general populace who support palestine think that

I think they are pretty alike.

Both more powerful neighbours wanting to expand and both illegal seizing land
 
FosseFilberto said:
Nothing is 'avoidable' whilst Israel continues its' illegal (under International Law) occupation and settlement expansionism in the West Bank ... whilst that situation continues there is always going to be armed struggle ...

There are now 196 illegal settlements in the West Bank... and, as recently as July this year, the UN opined that Israel should cease establishing new illegal settlements and evacuate all existing settlers ...
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I give up Fosse. Hopefully nobody has to ever spend eleven months arguing the mass rape and murder of your people is a justified “armed struggle”.
 
BobbyD said:
yup, thats geopolitics for you.

I think they are pretty alike.

Both more powerful neighbours wanting to expand and both illegal seizing land
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The big difference is that the West supplies Israel with most of its weapons and, as we've just witnessed, can scale back that support where that weaponry is used / suspected of being used in operations that contravene International Law ...
 
I’d have probably said the bigger difference is Russia isn’t surrounded by terrorists intent on wiping it off the planet but apparently Israelis are fair game for winning wars they didn’t start decades ago.
 
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