I have quoted what Sir Alf Ramsey said before but it bears repeating - “When things go well managers receive far too much of the praise and when they don’t they receive far too much of the criticism.”
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Match Day Thread Ipswich v Hull City
- Thread starter Chazz Rheinhold
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I have quoted what Sir Alf Ramsey said before but it bears repeating - “When things go well managers receive far too much of the praise and when they don’t they receive far too much of the criticism.”
Liam kept us up last season and has guided us to our best ever Championship start this season, what more could he have achieved in less than one full season?
I really don’t get the arrogance slur people seem to be throwing about either, it’s just something people say when they don’t agree with someone. I think he’s self-assured and confident, which might rub some people up the wrong way, but he also does a great job of keeping negative attention on him rather than the players.
People will always moan but at the moment the club is being well run, attendances are up, ticket prices are cheap, we have a decent squad and we are in a respectable position in the table, not much to moan at there.
As a result people are hyper critical of a young manager that has the clubs best interests at heart. There’s at least 6 better squads than ours in this league, so anything other than a mid table finish is a bonus.
I genuinely think some would be happy if the Allams were back in charge and we were plummeting back to League One just so they could wallow in a pit of misery.
As a result people are hyper critical of a young manager that has the clubs best interests at heart. There’s at least 6 better squads than ours in this league, so anything other than a mid table finish is a bonus.
I genuinely think some would be happy if the Allams were back in charge and we were plummeting back to League One just so they could wallow in a pit of misery.
I get your point, but it's not always that simple. The first time we went up there were better squads than ours. Ipswich don't have the best squad in the league.
I think some are 'hyper critical' because it's a good start and they don't want to see a good position slip away, not because they'd rather have the Allams back in and they want to see us plummet. To even suggest that, to me, makes you just as bad as the people you're pointing your big authoritative finger at. Give your head a wobble.
Has the start been good, absolutely. Could it have been better, absolutely.... we still aren't scoring enough which has been a theme since LR took over. We aren't winning enough at home which has been a theme since LR took over. We are still hard to beat ( 90% of the time ) which is a theme since LR took over.
There's lots to be positive about re the team and the club as a whole and everyone is ( or should be ) happy with the direction the club's now going. But that doesn't mean the fans who are the club's paying customers, have to be 100% happy with it all. LR has made it crystal clear this is his way of playing and he's not for changing. When someone is that strong and vocal about something then they are going to get judged on it. Some parts are working and so aren't.
The things I hear and see from scouts etc from other clubs is that clubs are working out how to play against us and it's straying to show a little as well. LR has to expect that and he has to now react to tweek things and get teams guessing again.
LR win ratio 30% from 40 games
Shota win ration 30% from 30 games
There's lots to be positive about re the team and the club as a whole and everyone is ( or should be ) happy with the direction the club's now going. But that doesn't mean the fans who are the club's paying customers, have to be 100% happy with it all. LR has made it crystal clear this is his way of playing and he's not for changing. When someone is that strong and vocal about something then they are going to get judged on it. Some parts are working and so aren't.
The things I hear and see from scouts etc from other clubs is that clubs are working out how to play against us and it's straying to show a little as well. LR has to expect that and he has to now react to tweek things and get teams guessing again.
LR win ratio 30% from 40 games
Shota win ration 30% from 30 games
I can see why, he talks about ‘the style’ like Steve Bruce talked about himself and Assem. He will also trot out some bollocks like after the Norwich game complaining about certain decisions that were correct (not the only time, just the one that most sticks in the mind).
I think for a lot of last season we just didn’t look very comfortable at all playing this way, struggled to create any chances of note and the players available would have much better suited a faster and more direct approach. Now although we have a squad of players that are suited to playing the way we are and it is starting to work well a lot of the time, there is that built up frustration that he has to work through.
I do very much think football is horses for courses and you do need to mix it up a bit to suit the occasion and the opponent you’re up against, like maybe setting up to soak pressure and attack quickly on the break would have worked a bit better on Tuesday.
But he won’t do that because it’s not ‘the style’. And that’s probably what people consider arrogant.
OK, so you are a mind reader now?
We know that a lot of the time AY is being sarcastic and taking the piss, hence the likes.
Keep up.
Agree with much of that, but I call that naivity, inflexibility, lack of experience.
For me the arrogance is more to do with what he says and how he can come across at times, when he's actually achieved **** all as a manager so far.
As he was mocking you and your posts it seemed rather odd of you to like his post if you knew he was doing so, but you do you mate.
You’ve missed my point, I was clearly being facetious with my comment on the Allams, no one realistically wants that.
We have a fan base that seems to revel in complaining, you only have to look how many posts are on a match thread when we lose compared to when we win.
Back when the Allams were in charge we had something to complain about, right now we really don’t, hence taking out on an inexperienced manager with a mid-table squad. The good start has probably set false expectations which has exacerbated the criticism.
This was precisely the point made on our latest podcast, and part of the issue Rosenior might face if we fail to beat Millwall. The terrific start can sometimes count against managers.
For me personally, the critique I have comes from the fact our start could and possibly should have been better, look at the games bar Ipswich and possibly norwich and you could argue we should have taken 3 pts in a fair few if we'd just been a little more expansive, played more direct/higher tempo and of course finished certain chances better.
A question that should be asked also, is on Saturday if we lose and results go against us, we could be 5pts from the drop zone. At the start of the season if we where told after 11 games we'd be 5pts of the drop zone, would we be happy?.... I know I wouldn't be after the investment that's gone in during summer etc
You could also say we could have lost to Leicester and Bristol City. I don't think you can just look at things and say we were unlucky without also acknowledging where we got lucky.
5 points and how many places? If we were told we'd have 3 losses from 11 games, an 8 game unbeaten run, clean sheets against Leicester and Leeds, I'd be reasonably happy regardless of how the table looks.
Thats one way of looking at it, you could also say we could quite easily of had fewer points. Leeds blew us away until they had 10 men and Plymouth could have been 3 up at half time.
I think the points we have a probably a fair reflection of our performances.
There you go again, mind reading.
Maybe you're on a different planet, not just a different continent.
I can see why several now ignore you and tell me to do the same.
Go for it then.
You can be hyper-critical of results without resorting to these cliches. I'm hyper-critical of the wasted chances we've had to win games. I'm frustrated in the stand every time we throw away a good scoring opportunity. But I always defend the team/Rosenior against these repeated, tired accusations of being too negative or too slow. It's totally inaccurate. I'm not sure I can ever remember us playing a more progressive, attacking style, but for some reason a narrative has caught hold among our fanbase that playing it on the ground is defensive or risk-averse. At the same time though people also complain about the risk involved(!).
We need to focus on what the actual issues are. Majority of the time it's missing opportunities to score, whether it's a missed chance or a wasted final ball. Even at Ipswich where we had our worst performance, the stats on chances were very close between the two teams and according to Google we had 2 big chances to their 0. I know the statophobes will struggle to cope with reading those words but it gives some perspective. Even on our worst day and when we're playing a team who supposedly blew us out of the water and played so much more direct and fast, in reality, factually, they didn't actually create that much at all. Couple of brilliant finishes and you win a game comfortably. And that's where we fall down. If people who want to be critical focused more on criticising that clinicalness that we really do lack, and less on churning out the same cliches after every disappointing result regardless of how the game actually goes, there'd be less opposition to it.
That's your opinion. Fair enough.
But to me, and seemingly some others, trying to put in a way that avoids what you call 'same old tired cliches', there's much more to it than what you keep focussing on. Meaning, we are:
- poor still in our attacking phases (which yes, include actually putting away chances, but it's much more than just that). I see no pattern to it, no clever routines, just the flash of individual skill now and then from Philo & Delap. It's like we've been left to improvise when it comes to the final 3rd.
- too often looking backwards & sideways, recycling from even really from good positions right back to CB's or the keeper.
- more patient in our play than we should be, seemingly lacking any urgency until late on
- continuing to play square pegs in round holes. I don't get the arguments that we have no choice because of injuries, that is simply no longer true. As an example, there was no necessity whatsoever to play Coyle as a LB on Tuesday (something that Ipswich gave us a lesson on that is hopefully learnt).
I honestly can't see how anyone can dispute the 2nd, 3rd & 4th point as we've been seeing it every game since Rosenior took over, but I accept that, being uneducated, I might be missing something with the first point.
We aren't doing badly, but we could be doing even better if we can stop throwing points away. How long do we stay patient before we see signs of us being an attacking force given the players we've now got?
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You've responded to me saying people talk in cliches by listing out a load of the same cliches people constantly go around. This stuff is exactly what I'm talking about. "Too often going backwards", "no urgency", "square pegs round holes". These are go-tos for whenever we don't win, they pre-date Rosenior being our manager, and they're the same popular complaints you see at every other club when they're not winning too. If these things were true, we wouldn't be creating and missing all these chances (and good positions which are wasted before they become outright chances).
It is a fact that Ipswich had only one more shot than us and the same number of shots on target. And that's us on a particularly bad day. Against Plymouth we had big opportunities throughout the entire game, including the first few minutes, and yet people predictably complained, as you just have, that there was no urgency until late on. It was demonstrably nonsense to anyone who could remember the start of the game, but that never seems to matter in football discourse. If a team drops points it's open season to criticise every aspect of their approach, regardless of how the game actually went.
Maybe needs a statto to add ... err .... stats.
Maybe people keep saying those same things because they are for the most part and for a lot of the time actually true.
Of course things like 'square pegs in round holes' (or often phrased as 'favourites', 'undroppables') are said about other managers too. And sometimes it's a necessity. IMO, and I know that's all it is, playing Coyle at LB on Tuesday was a prime example of it being an unnecessary mistake, and one which a more flexible manager readily exploited.
Of course, IF we put more chances away we'd be happier, but that doesn't change the underlying. And maybe there's a reason we aren't putting some of the chances away that are to do with one of the points raised (although there was no excusing Traore's horrendous miss ... even though one or two actually did try to excuse it).
Anyway, off for .... a walk
, then hoping for 3 points and a great performance on Saturday.