Hmmm, not looking good this ...

[Smug in Boots]

and the coroner doesn't need to check - I thought you said that the death certificate was sacrosanct - not anymore. the death certificate can say what it wants too say and the coroner can be bypassed.

As things stand I wouldn't believe it wise for coroners to have to examine every death of similar causes.

If it's a virus, whether Covid, winter flu, etc, I'd be satisfied with a professional estimation.

I'm more concerned, at the moment, with the NHS using its time to care for the living.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but that's how I feel. I'm not even sure how a coroner would check for proof of Covid, how long it would take and what good it would do. At a time when all the people, who need them, can't get tests I'd be unhappy if they were allocated to the deceased.

I'm sure most people would agree with me.

 

[Build Back Better]

As for a vaccine.

first of all the flu vaccine doesn't work in 100% of cases.

The CDC tells us that it is only 40% to 60% effective
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

Therefore even if there was a vaccine for this strain of coronavirus the odds are that it isn't 100% effective.

How long dies it take to produce a vaccine - here is an article on the history of vaccines - the answer is - longer than 6 to 12 months
https://www.businessinsider.com/how...s-in-history-2020-7?r=US&IR=T#typhoid-fever-3

Now I'm happy to take any vaccine - as long as it is medically proven to work, has no side effects and has been thoroughly tested

However this has recently happened - https://www.anhinternational.org/news/uk-law-changes-for-covid-19-mass-vaccination/

Last Friday consultation finished on a mass vaccination programme for this virus in the UK. the above organisation had this to say about what is being proposed:

"Legislative changes to The Human Medicines Regulations 2012 (HMRs) that fast-track mass vaccination using unregistered vaccines, as well as permit their advertising by commercially interested parties and their administration by non-health care professionals, should not be supported until such time that:

1. A full range of plausible therapeutic treatments and pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical prevention options have been thoroughly evaluated and found to be of no significant benefit to public health
2. Definitive results from trials (Phase III) are placed in the public domain that demonstrate COVID-19 vaccines have an acceptable risk/benefit profile to justify mass vaccination
3. Scientific testing of possible interactions between COVID-19 and influenza vaccines has been conducted and shown to not cause any disease enhancement or other negative interaction given the two vaccines may be administered jointly.

The proposed amendments to the HMRs undo over half a century of regulatory development in the fields of medicinal and consumer protection law that had the intent of protecting the interests of citizens.

The expansion of legal immunity to civil liability, coupled with a reversal of the prohibition of direct-to-consumer advertising and the expansion of the workforce of vaccine administrators outside the healthcare professions, provides a recipe for coercion and a disregard for informed consent. This would create an environment where the planned mass vaccination programme of the British public using novel, unlicensed COVID-19 vaccines could constitute serious breaches of The Human Rights Act 1998".

 

[Build Back Better]

Yesterday there were 6178 positive cases of this virus out of a total sample size of 218360
This means that 97% tested negative
3% tested positive
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/testing

6178 positive cases is 0.0092% of the UK population

The CDC has told us that these tests test for various viruses - including the common cold

ATM there are 211 people on ventilators
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/healthcare

The Guardian tells us that the government had plans to buy and presumably did buy 30000 ventilators
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-source-30000-ventilators-for-nhs-coronavirus

If they were bought then we currently have 29789 ventilators that aren't being used

 

[Build Back Better]

There are currently 1257 hospitals in the UK
https://www.sanctuarypersonnel.com/blog/2020/04/how-many-nhs-hospitals-are-there-in-the-uk

They have 5900 critical care beds
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/critical-care-services-nhs

As of yesterday there were 1469 virus patients in hospital
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/healthcare

How many required critical care beds is not stated

 

[Wolf 1973]

Not now they're not.

You only have to look at the ONS stats weekly and the Coronavirus Act that tells us that a coroner no longer has to be involved in deciding the cause of death. People are dying, having this virus placed on their death certificate - even if they test negative for it. all it needs is a clinical diagnosis by a medical professional in hospital. no one checks if they get the diagnosis wrong.

So deaths certificates once were sacrosanct - no longer.

ONS -Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths are those deaths registered in England and Wales in the stated week where COVID-19 was mentioned on the death certificate. A doctor can certify the involvement of COVID-19 based on symptoms and clinical findings – a positive test result is not required.

Section 9 - Glossary -
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...andandwalesprovisional/weekending28august2020


Coronavirus Act - https://www.wardhadaway.com/updates/chief-coroners-summary-of-the-coronavirus-act-2020/

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/1-2/6/section/4/data.pdf It's a criminal offence to lie on a death certificate. A trained medical professional is still the only person who can sign a death certificate, not just the local porter or cleaner.
"he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall be liable—
(i) on conviction thereof on indictment to penal servitude for a term not exceeding seven years, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or to a fine instead of either of the said punishments; and
(ii) on summary conviction thereof, to a penalty not exceeding [£100].

Say what you like about the data and statistics that are put about by the Government, likewise it's up to you to believe whether the restrictions placed upon us are warranted or not, but there's no way a doctor lies on a death certificate (unless they are willingly going against the above). The GMC would look into their medical licence as well as the criminal ramifications. A death certificate is a legal document, it's the same as lying for your passport or birth certificate, for the exact reasons as John Darwin faking his death to collect life insurance.

 

[Build Back Better]

Excess deaths.

The British Medical Journal wrote an article on this
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931

The article they wrote said and I will quote:

"Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by covid-19, new data have shown".

And remember what the ONS said - people are having the virus placed on their death certificate even if they test negative for it. another important thing to note is that people are dying "with" the virus, not "of" it.

It stands to reason that if you are cancelling tens of thousands of operations, consultancies, life saving treatment for people with Cancer etc and other life threatening diseases that ultimately a lot of those people are simply going to run out of time.

 

[Build Back Better]

The NHS and ONS produce stats every week on this virus and unfortunately some of the figures they produce are hidden away in excel spreadsheets that you have to download.

The last figure i saw and it could have increased is that - 308 people in the UK, under the age of 60, with no underlying health conditions - had died with this virus on their death certificate.

I don't know what the under 60 population is in the uk but I would guess 50m plus?

 

[Build Back Better]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/1-2/6/section/4/data.pdf It's a criminal offence to lie on a death certificate. A trained medical professional is still the only person who can sign a death certificate, not just the local porter or cleaner.
"he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall be liable—
(i) on conviction thereof on indictment to penal servitude for a term not exceeding seven years, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or to a fine instead of either of the said punishments; and
(ii) on summary conviction thereof, to a penalty not exceeding [£100].

Say what you like about the data and statistics that are put about by the Government, likewise it's up to you to believe whether the restrictions placed upon us are warranted or not, but there's no way a doctor lies on a death certificate (unless they are willingly going against the above). The GMC would look into their medical licence as well as the criminal ramifications. A death certificate is a legal document, it's the same as lying for your passport or birth certificate, for the exact reasons as John Darwin faking his death to collect life insurance.

I'm not getting into an argument with you. what I am doing is telling you what the CA and the ONS tells us.

It is then up to people to make their own minds up.

 

[Wolf 1973]

Excess deaths.

The British Medical Journal wrote an article on this
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1931

The article they wrote said and I will quote:

"Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by covid-19, new data have shown".

And remember what the ONS said - people are having the virus placed on their death certificate even if they test negative for it. another important thing to note is that people are dying "with" the virus, not "of" it.

It stands to reason that if you are cancelling tens of thousands of operations, consultancies, life saving treatment for people with Cancer etc and other life threatening diseases that ultimately a lot of those people are simply going to run out of time.

All that article tells me is there are larger than expected numbers of deaths in the community which can't be attributed to coronavirus. Whether that's due to the points you've mentioned that treatments are cancelled, we don't know. I believe the treatments cancelled are "non-emergency" which opens a very philosophical line of questioning as to how you determine that.
I imagine there will be a large inquest into the Government's response to the pandemic in a few years to judge whether it was lawful and the right course of action.

 

[Build Back Better]

In January 2018 over 64000 people died in the UK due to a 42% spike in the flu

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5440785/Killer-flu-outbreak-blame-42-spike-deaths.html

Did this even make the MSM?

I can go on and on with this but my questions are:

1. why are we flogging this virus to death day in and day out?
2. the stats do not bear out this over blown fear porn being put out by the government and the MSM?
3. who decided that we would have this fear porn every day?
4. for what purpose?
5. can this even be classed as a pandemic? could you not say, charitably that this is an epidemic?
6. does whats going on justify one person asking me, quite seriously: "why is boris johnson turning England into a version of Airstrip 1 with the consensus and backing of a large number of the UK population" - his words - not mine?

Absolutely nothing adds up about this virus.

One final thing - why did the UK Govt 4 days before lockdown declare that the virus was non highly infectious?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid

I'll leave it there.

 

[Build Back Better]

All that article tells me is there are larger than expected numbers of deaths in the community which can't be attributed to coronavirus. Whether that's due to the points you've mentioned that treatments are cancelled, we don't know. I believe the treatments cancelled are "non-emergency" which opens a very philosophical line of questioning as to how you determine that.
I imagine there will be a large inquest into the Government's response to the pandemic in a few years to judge whether it was lawful and the right course of action.

that is your opinion.

All I am doing is placing a context on everything that is happening and giving you the links to bonafide websites such as - ONS, NHS, UK government, BMJ

 

[Sunderpitt]

Damned lies and statistics...

Should the death toll, not be measured against those who have been unfortunate enough to catch/be exposed to Covid 19.

It may well be that to date only a small proportion of the population have been exposed/caught Covid 19. Not everyone exposed to it, like with the flu will catch it.
However if the whole population of the UK is exposed to Covid 19, a lot more will catch it, and a lot more will die of it.
Then again this virus is obviously impacting the elderly and those with certain existing health conditions more.

So perhaps what we need to know is what proportion of those over say 60 who have been exposed to Covid19 have caught it and how many die.

If the vast majority of those, more susceptible and vulnerable to Covid19 have as yet not been exposed to it... it behoves the government to stop the spread... or perhaps some think if the elderly die it will save on pension costs and free the health service up look after the young easier.

 

[Nig]

My partner is a doctor. I know for a fact, it's a legal obligation to record on a death certificate the legitimate cause of death for a patient (if known) else it results in serious consequences for the doctor. There's not been some conspiratorial leaning on doctors to record deaths under false pretences, if they've recorded someone passed from coronavirus, then they did. If the government have altered the figures for deaths, that's on them, but I'll not have doctors' integrity questioned as if they're just a collective hive mind doing the Ministers bidding when they're individual people with their own minds also affected by the goings on. I'd suggest doctors are more affected, much like care workers by the constant fear of being a carrier unbeknownst to them.

I'm sure your partner has integrity etc but are you suggesting all doctors have ?
We could start with a long long list with Harold Shipman

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-can-we-trust-the-covid-19-death-toll

You must log in or register to see images

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...sts-coronavirus-testing-failures-21965089.amp


I'm not suggesting doctors are manipulating figures for government, that would be tin hat.

But i disagree doctors are as fearful as care workers.
Hospital Dr's maybe, but GP's sat at home doing phone consultations ?
I know of a hospital Dr in London who has resigned over the farcical procedures laid out by government and refusal to sign a none disclosure document forced on them over Boris Johnson's so called Corona.

 

[Nig]

Quite right.

I find it quite offensive that people would accuse doctors of lying to protect the current government.

Death certificates are sacrosanct.

You obviously haven't read the changes since Corona

I personally haven't accused doctors of falsifying death certificates for government.
But figures are getting muddied.

I find it offensive you find it offensive to question doctors.

If doctors weren't questioned my mothers old doctor wouldn't of been struck off

 

[Smug in Boots]

I'm sure your partner has integrity etc but are you suggesting all doctors have ?
We could start with a long long list with Harold Shipman

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-can-we-trust-the-covid-19-death-toll

You must log in or register to see images

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...sts-coronavirus-testing-failures-21965089.amp


I'm not suggesting doctors are manipulating figures for government, that would be tin hat.

But i disagree doctors are as fearful as care workers.
Hospital Dr's maybe, but GP's sat at home doing phone consultations ?
I know of a hospital Dr in London who has resigned over the farcical procedures laid out by government and refusal to sign a none disclosure document forced on them over Boris Johnson's so called Corona.

If a doctor puts my death down as alcohol poisoning instead of drug abuse I'll live with it ...

... if you see what I mean.

There's a lot more to worry about than hospital admin tbh.

 

[Smug in Boots]

You obviously haven't read the changes since Corona

I personally haven't accused doctors of falsifying death certificates for government.
But figures are getting muddied.

I find it offensive you find it offensive to question doctors.

If doctors weren't questioned my mothers old doctor wouldn't of been struck off

It's a disgrace and no mistake ...

... The Figure Muddling Crisis of 2020!

It's akin to the Bay of Pigs and Suez imo.

 

[Nig]

I couldn't even begin to explain because I don't know. All I know is how serious a death certificate is and the consequences of falsifying one. I highly doubt a doctor would write coronavirus if that wasn't the ultimate cause, but it is possible obviously. There's a chance that she was tested at some point whilst there, but I'm only speculating and that wouldn't be fair. Sorry for your loss.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo5/1-2/6/section/4/data.pdf Perjury Act 1911 showing it's a criminal offence to falsify a death certificate.

It isn't falsifying if a test was carried out and positive.
It can be added to certificate even if the death was another cause.
Covers all bases but is bumping figures up.
Again, with change of laws since Corona who's to question except family ?

 

[Sandy Camel]

So Leyton Orient are the first club that has had to cancel a fixture due to corona as far as I'm aware but I highly doubt this will be the only time it happens. I really do fear that we're going to be looking at a very different landscape by season's end and I don't think we're going to see every club make it through, not without a massive financial input from somewhere.

At the lower end of the footy pyramid, the Dover Athletic chairman was saying they've got 2 weeks left for somthing to be sorted out before they go under.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...two-weeks-left-says-dover-owner-jim-parmenter

 

[Nig]

If a doctor puts my death down as alcohol poisoning instead of drug abuse I'll live with it ...

... if you see what I mean.

There's a lot more to worry about than hospital admin tbh.

From government guidelines, not being able to attend a loved ones funeral because they had drug or alcohol problem was a bit of a bummer though

 

[Nig]

So Leyton Orient are the first club that has had to cancel a fixture due to corona as far as I'm aware but I highly doubt this will be the only time it happens. I really do fear that we're going to be looking at a very different landscape by season's end and I don't think we're going to see every club make it through, not without a massive financial input from somewhere.

At the lower end of the footy pyramid, the Dover Athletic chairman was saying they've got 2 weeks left for somthing to be sorted out before they go under.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...two-weeks-left-says-dover-owner-jim-parmenter

The way the economy is going,
Football clubs will be the least of most folks worry