Off Topic General Election Special

[City Man]

Question (mainly for the Conservative voters).

Ignoring the emotive content about ‘the boy without a hospital bed’ for one minute, where do you think the ensuing fake news story emerged from?

A Conservative source? Paid or unpaid to try and distract from a damaging story that was breaking.

Russia? Especially given the Conservatives close links to powerful Russians (and their funding) the suppression of the ‘Russian Interference Report’.

Elsewhere?

Does this concern you in any way, especially given the findings that 88% of Conservative Ads contain false information?

Does the proven fact that they have lied so consistently throughout this campaign concern you about their governance?

Or do you think as long as 'Brexit is done' etc. or at least it’s not Corbyn, they can do what they want?

Or maybe you dispute these findings and have your own ideas/hunch/research?

Interested to read your opinions.

There were at least 3 fake Twitter/Facebook stories trying to discount the initial story and trying to impersonate people in the know. This ultimately failed of course and to me, the incorrect use of ‘Leeds Hospital’ smacked of a lack of local knowledge, perhaps foreign involvement. But could be wrong.

FYI Here’s a BBC account of it – chose this one because, for a bit of balance, they tend to tread very carefully towards the Conservatives, compared to some other sources I could have used.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50728920

Sorry to completely sidestep your question Leon, but I think the whole thing is a crock of ****.
No PM of this country ( of whatever party) should ever be doorstepped in this way, it's ****ish in the extreme.

Since when did we become a country that disrespects the office of PM and demands he/she show instant compassion/ grieving (ref, Teresa May at Grenfell) on demand? And then trumpets it as if it i as proof of callousness if the salty tears don't fall down the cheeks?

Used to be the country of stiff upper lip, now it's the country of quivering lower lip, and cynical opportunist manipulators.


Going back to the original question, it doesn't bother me overmuch. So much made up news, spin, trivial superficial **** filling the vacuum in the run up to the vote.

Question for you : do you find the personality cult of the Corbynistas bizarre or uncomfortable?

Many serious thinkers on the Left must be be very sceptical of the silliness or transience of it all.

 

[Leon...]

Sorry to completely sidestep your question Leon, but I think the whole thing is a crock of ****.
No PM of this country ( of whatever party) should ever be doorstepped in this way, it's ****ish in the extreme.

Since when did we become a country that disrespects the office of PM and demands he/she show instant compassion/ grieving (ref, Teresa May at Grenfell) on demand? And then trumpets it as if it i as proof of callousness if the salty tears don't fall down the cheeks?

Used to be the country of stiff upper lip, now it's the country of quivering lower lip, and cynical opportunist manipulators.


Going back to the original question, it doesn't bother me overmuch. So much made up news, spin, trivial superficial **** filling the vacuum in the run up to the vote.

Question for you : do you find the personality cult of the Corbynistas bizarre or uncomfortable?

Many serious thinkers on the Left must be be very sceptical of the silliness or transience of it all.

There is arguably 'Corbynism' but I have seen no cult - cult is just used as a pejorative.

What happened was a break, a break from 20 years of Labour neoliberalism and a return to older Labour values.

It's not radical, only radical compared to the **** we've had pushed on us for decades. I mean, people talk about Corbyn as some sort of communist when he/they haven't even tried to reinstate Clause IV.

A lot of people, particularly younger people became enthused by his leadership. However, he is painted, however he is smeared and no matter how few qualifications he has, he represents a return to some semblance of fairness.

I like Corbyn. But I'd support whoever if they offered something similar and I could trust them.

 

[Sir Cheshire Ben]

Unfortunately, yes.

29th?

 

[City Man]

There is arguably 'Corbynism' but I have seen no cult - cult is just used as a pejorative.

What happened was a break, a break from 20 years of Labour neoliberalism and a return to older Labour values.

It's not radical, only radical compared to the **** we've had pushed on us for decades. I mean, people talk about Corbyn as some sort of communist when he/they haven't even tried to reinstate Clause IV.

A lot of people, particularly younger people became enthused by his leadership. However, he is painted, however he is smeared and no matter how few qualifications he has, he represents a return to some semblance of fairness.

I like Corbyn. But I'd support whoever if they offered something similar and I could trust them.

I tried to use the word 'cult' neutrally.

Seems creepy to me that middle aged adults should chant his name (any politician's name)to a rock song, it's just not in our political lexicon.

It reminds me almost of unassuming Brian in The Life of Brian, worshipped as the Saviour by his followers.

I remember those pix of Noel Gallagher schmoozing at no. 10 with Blair when it seemed he was the Messiah after Major's grey years., and how now Gallagher vilifies him.

Maybe if I was young with no political experiences/history I would give him a clean sheet and the benefit of the doubt, but as I said earlier he is not smart or energetic enough to walk the walk.

I think win or lose this election, his days are numbered as Labour leader.

 

[Amin Arrears]

29th?

Even earlier sadly.

15th-22nd I think.

Sometime around those dates anyway.

 

[Leon...]

I tried to use the word 'cult' neutrally.

Seems creepy to me that middle aged adults should chant his name (any politician's name)to a rock song, it's just not in our political lexicon.

It reminds me almost of unassuming Brian in The Life of Brian, worshipped as the Saviour by his followers.

I remember those pix of Noel Gallagher schmoozing at no. 10 with Blair when it seemed he was the Messiah after Major's grey years., and how now Gallagher vilifies him.

Maybe if I was young with no political experiences/history I would give him a clean sheet and the benefit of the doubt, but as I said earlier he is not smart or energetic enough to walk the walk.

I think win or lose this election, his days are numbered as Labour leader.

I think the chant is borne from humour as well as defiance - the odds stacked against him.

Alternatively, always think it must be easy as **** in a Tory government - the easy easy ride given by the media vis a vis what they do to Labour. The current cabinet are by and large ****ing terrible. If they were Labour MPs they'd be crucified. Probably the worst of the current crop must be Matt Hancock, Liz Truss, Dominic Raab and James Cleverly.

Gove is the most intelligent out of them. But has made many high profile ****-ups too.

Also, I think Gallagher is still well up Blair's arse, all these years later.

 

[originalminority]

There is arguably 'Corbynism' but I have seen no cult - cult is just used as a pejorative.

What happened was a break, a break from 20 years of Labour neoliberalism and a return to older Labour values.

It's not radical, only radical compared to the **** we've had pushed on us for decades. I mean, people talk about Corbyn as some sort of communist when he/they haven't even tried to reinstate Clause IV.

A lot of people, particularly younger people became enthused by his leadership. However, he is painted, however he is smeared and no matter how few qualifications he has, he represents a return to some semblance of fairness.

I like Corbyn. But I'd support whoever if they offered something similar and I could trust them.

Corbyn has got a radical agenda, probably the most radical since Thatcher and after about 30 years of fairly safe centrist government I think voters will be scared of his radical spending plans.

 

[Leon...]

Corbyn has got a radical agenda, probably the most radical since Thatcher and after about 30 years of fairly safe centrist government I think voters will be scared of his radical spending plans.

Scared mainly because of the right-wing media’s hyperbole and the Conservatives’ false claims.

How many people truly understand the economics of the situation? Yet all too often are happy to parrot out a line fed to them by the media or CCHQ.

We always find money for wars, think Iraq and Afghanistan cost something like 20-30 billion pounds (perhaps more).

Why not invest in our people instead?

 

[City Man]

I think the chant is borne from humour as well as defiance - the odds stacked against him.

Alternatively, always think it must be easy as **** in a Tory government - the easy easy ride given by the media vis a vis what they do to Labour. The current cabinet are by and large ****ing terrible. If they were Labour MPs they'd be crucified. Probably the worst of the current crop must be Matt Hancock, Liz Truss, Dominic Raab and James Cleverly.

Gove is the most intelligent out of them. But has made many high profile ****-ups too.

Also, I think Gallagher is still well up Blair's arse, all these years later.

Johnson's bungling, u turns, dodginess seems to be well documented enough and reported in the Press.

Just a shame this is all focussed on 2 deeply flawed individuals, as it accustoms young voters to a binary/superficial view of the political panorama.

Agree re Raab, Hancock and co, not cabinet material. Gardiner and Ashworth and co are as bad on the other side.

Think the wilier long term players on both sides are biding their time in the shadows, allowing the hotheads to crash and burn in the Brexit/non Brexit meltdown.
I'm talking Hilary Benn and Dominic Grieve and co

 

[Off The Line]

Foodbanks in the UK

2004 - 1
2008 - 22
2011 - 100
2012 - 252
2019 - 2,030

Do the right thing.

 

[Leon...]

Johnson's bungling, u turns, dodginess seems to be well documented enough and reported in the Press.

Just a shame this is all focussed on 2 deeply flawed individuals, as it accustoms young voters to a binary/superficial view of the political panorama.

Agree re Raab, Hancock and co, not cabinet material. Gardiner and Ashowth and co are as bad on the other side.

Think the wilier long term players on both sides are biding their time in the shadows, allowing the hotheads to crash and burn in the Brexit/non Brexit meltdown.
I'm talking Hilary Benn and Dominic Grieve and co

Agree to a certain extent on BJ, but he gets away with a lot compared to what he has said and done compared to Corbyn.

I'm surprised you mention Grieve and Benn - can't imagine either gaining much traction within their respective parties in the next decade. Grieve obviously independent at the minute anyway, but the Conservatives have reconfigured to the right - despite the One Nation banner Johnson claims - though time will tell.

Same deal in the Labour Party. The PLP don't hold the cards, the members do, and I can't see Benn being a popular choice anytime soon.

 

[Edelman]

Scared mainly because of the right-wing media’s hyperbole and the Conservatives’ false claims.

How many people truly understand the economics of the situation? Yet all too often are happy to parrot out a line fed to them by the media or CCHQ.

We always find money for wars, think Iraq and Afghanistan cost something like 20-30 billion pounds (perhaps more).

Why not invest in our people instead?

With borrowing at such low costs would it be the catastrophy that the media claim ?
There seems to be money available to channel for the likes of HS2 !
What will the final cost of that be ?
Crossrail us also seeing money pumped into its bottomless pit !

 

[City Man]

Agree to a certain extent on BJ, but he gets away with a lot compared to what he has said and done compared to Corbyn.

I'm surprised you mention Grieve and Benn - can't imagine either gaining much traction within their respective parties in the next decade. Grieve obviously independent at the minute anyway, but the Conservatives have reconfigured to the right - despite the One Nation banner Johnson claims - though time will tell.

Same deal in the Labour Party. The PLP don't hold the cards, the members do, and I can't see Benn being a popular choice anytime soon.

Can't see Johnson or Corbyn lasting very long at all, too many foes and skeletons in the closet. The Benn act basically halted Brexit- does that not gain him respect in his remainer party?

Gove could take over - with Starmer on the other side.

Both sides fighting civil wars for many months to come.

 

[originallambrettaman]

Scared mainly because of the right-wing media’s hyperbole and the Conservatives’ false claims.

How many people truly understand the economics of the situation? Yet all too often are happy to parrot out a line fed to them by the media or CCHQ.

We always find money for wars, think Iraq and Afghanistan cost something like 20-30 billion pounds (perhaps more).

Why not invest in our people instead?

I think they’ll mainly be scared by them being utterly appalling ideas.

Many of us still remember the 70’s, when nationalised industries stumbled from one disaster to another and massively increased tax rates generated less revenue than the lower tax rates they replaced, as everyone avoided paying them.

Nationalising WIFI ffs.

 

[Off The Line]

I think they’ll mainly be scared by them being utterly appalling ideas.

Many of us still remember the 70’s, when nationalised industries stumbled from one disaster to another and massively increased tax rates generated less revenue than the lower tax rates they replaced, as everyone avoided paying them.

Nationalising WIFI ffs.

Seems to be working OK in Ireland from what I hear.

 

[City Man]

Seems to be working OK in Ireland from what I hear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loans_to_Ireland_Act_2010

Looking forward to getting doshed up by this lot

 

[Leon...]

I think they’ll mainly be scared by them being utterly appalling ideas.

Many of us still remember the 70’s, when nationalised industries stumbled from one disaster to another and massively increased tax rates generated less revenue than the lower tax rates they replaced, as everyone avoided paying them.

Nationalising WIFI ffs.

Opinion polls demonstrate a broad support re-nationalising our utilities and broadband.

https://fullfact.org/economy/do-public-want-railways-renationalised/

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...n/news/108015/yougov-snap-poll-reveals-public

Many more sources I could link you to too.

Data I've seen from the Labour Party also confirms it is popular on the doorstep, no matter what the vested interests say.

I don't understand that if you're proudly British, that you wouldn't want us to run our own services. In Ireland for example, it's not radical, their utilities are nationalised.

 

[Leon...]

Can't see Johnson or Corbyn lasting very long at all, too many foes and skeletons in the closet. The Benn act basically halted Brexit- does that not gain him respect in his remainer party?

Gove could take over - with Starmer on the other side.

Both sides fighting civil wars for many months to come.

Interesting counter point with regard to Benn but I don't think he's largely trusted (remember he also orchestrated a coup).

But time and people's experiences can change minds.

 

[City Man]

Opinion polls demonstrate a broad support re-nationalising our utilities and broadband.

https://fullfact.org/economy/do-public-want-railways-renationalised/

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...n/news/108015/yougov-snap-poll-reveals-public

Many more sources I could link you to too.

Data I've seen from the Labour Party also confirms it is popular on the doorstep, no matter what the vested interests say.

I don't understand that if you're proudly British, that you wouldn't want us to run our own services. In Ireland for example, it's not radical, their utilities are nationalised.

Because the Unions held successive governments to ransom and overplayed their hand, and to future-proof against that, the industries were privatised.
I referred earlier in this thread to the winter of 73/74 and the power cuts inflicted on the population because of strikes. Ted Heath's govt was brought down and a dangerous precedent was thereby set.
.

 

[Leon...]

Because the Unions held successive governments to ransom and overplayed their hand, and to future-proof against that, the industries were privatised.
I referred earlier in this thread to the winter of 73/74 and the power cuts inflicted on the population because of strikes. Ted Heath's govt was brought down and a dangerous precedent was thereby set.
.

I could point you to hundreds of failings of privatisation, and millions of examples of failings of capitalism. Saying that something failed in the 70s does not wash as a reason to not do it.

Why not trust Britain to run its own services and utilities. British jobs and the money staying in Britain.

Isn't that in the spirit of Brexit?