Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Stroller]

I do find it rather amusing that you of all people should criticise the "spluttering rage" when you have been crying your eyes out with indignant rage ever since we voted to leave,

The over-reaction to what was just a silly tweet has been pathetic in my view. What's worrying about it, though, is that some seem to want to use it as an excuse for 'telling 'em to ****-off', and leave without a deal. As if that massive act of self-harm would be worth it because it would also harm the EU.

 

[colognehornet]

Yes, we know domestic politics can be pretty uncivil and the media can be as rude about foreign rulers as they like. But there is a code of etiquette between national leaders and their respective civil services, because if one leader insults another country's leader, they are insulting the whole of that country.

I can't really follow the logic of that Goldie. Macron did not insult May personally, and Tusk's tweet was simply stupid, nothing more than that. As for 'insulting a whole nation' - how many of our politicians have made negative comments about Trump ? Were they, simultaneously, insulting the whole of the USA in the process ? I don't think it can be interpreted in that way. Leaders of countries do not always follow lines of etiquette when dealing with each other - Thatcher's relationship to Helmut Kohl was full of less than complementary behaviour on both sides.

 

[ELLERS]

On another note..
That Eurosceptic, jew problem, turn coating, mind changing terrorist loving Comrade Corbyn says he may support a second ferendum. Surely not! He has sat on the sidelines for 2 years saying noting (except about Jews) and now decides to change his mind? mmm I am glad he sticks by his principles.

 

[rangercol]

The over-reaction to what was just a silly tweet has been pathetic in my view. What's worrying about it, though, is that some seem to want to use it as an excuse for 'telling 'em to ****-off', and leave without a deal. As if that massive act of self-harm would be worth it because it would also harm the EU.

It's more than just the tweet, it's the entire way our PM was treated so dis-respectively. As I said to Wats, I'm not surprised that you don't get it.
I would much prefer a good deal for all concerned, but the intransigence from the EU from the very start has meant that there is very little chance of this. Our government has also been worse than useless, with no leadership whatsoever.
The Chequers deal gave far too much ground imo and yet that still wasn't enough for them.

So yes, I do believe that the time has come to tell them to **** off, unless they can come back with a proposal that doesn't completely **** us over.

 

[Stroller]

On another note..
That Eurosceptic, jew problem, turn coating, mind changing terrorist loving Comrade Corbyn says he may support a second ferendum. Surely not! He has sat on the sidelines for 2 years saying noting (except about Jews) and now decides to change his mind? mmm I am glad he sticks by his principles.

You've got it all twisted as usual, Ellers. Corbyn and McDonnell have said that they will support a second referendum if the party membership want it. Democracy at work.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I can't really follow the logic of that Goldie. Macron did not insult May personally, and Tusk's tweet was simply stupid, nothing more than that. As for 'insulting a whole nation' - how many of our politicians have made negative comments about Trump ? Were they, simultaneously, insulting the whole of the USA in the process ? I don't think it can be interpreted in that way. Leaders of countries do not always follow lines of etiquette when dealing with each other - Thatcher's relationship to Helmut Kohl was full of less than complementary behaviour on both sides.

Common or garden politicians can say what they like, Cologne. So can the media. But government, in the form of the national leader and supporting diplomats and civil service have to be incredibly careful. When has the UK government put out a humiliating tweet about Trump in an attempt to be humorous and demean him?

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

Bloody hell your posting a lot tonight.... shame it's the usual remoaner crap.
I would respond but you are sounding as boring as some bloke in the pub tonight and I can't be bothered.

Pathetic. As usual. Don't answer the questions - just resort to a soundbite. You're not a politician are you?

 

[ELLERS]

Pathetic. As usual. Don't answer the questions - just resort to a soundbite. You're not a politician are you?

Sadly I only have the etiquette to be a President of the European Council or a French president

 

[colognehornet]

Common or garden politicians can say what they like, Cologne. So can the media. But government, in the form of the national leader and supporting diplomats and civil service have to be incredibly careful. When has the UK government put out a humiliating tweet about Trump in an attempt to be humorous and demean him?

I think that we can agree that it was, at worst, a stupid mistake made by one individual, who may have simply been trying to introduce a bit of much needed humour into proceedings (Tusk that is), it misfired, but that is insufficient reason for the hardening of attitudes against the whole of the EU. There may be general irritation within the EU. establishment regarding the British position - how could there not be ? Britain is saying 'We want your trade but we don't want you'. 'We want unrestricted access to your markets, without paying a penny for it and, (as has been said before on here) we don't want you coming to us - we will decide who comes, when, and for how long' The EU. cannot support any idea which erects walls between people, and which restricts EU. citizens rights - and this includes restricting the rights of those Europe friendly Britons who want to remain. It is well known in the EU. that one half of Britain is imposing a judgement upon the other half and that, as a consequence, existing citizens rights will/may be curtailed as a result.

 

[ELLERS]

You've got it all twisted as usual, Ellers. Corbyn and McDonnell have said that they will support a second referendum if the party membership want it. Democracy at work.

No not twisted Stoller. I just turned on TV a guy said Corbyn was up for a second referendum. If I am wrong of course I will admit I made a mistake.
however...
"Democracy at work". funny you say that because I seem to remember certain posters on here talking about principles of people and sticking by them...I also seem to remember a few posts on Corbyn. I will have to dig them out.

 

[Stroller]

No not twisted Stoller. I just turned on TV a guy said Corbyn was up for a second referendum. If I am wrong of course I will admit I made a mistake.
however...
"Democracy at work". funny you say that because I seem to remember certain posters on here talking about principles of people and sticking by them...I also seem to remember a few posts on Corbyn. I will have to dig them out.

Corbyn doesn't personally support a new referendum, but will go along with the party membership if it's what they want.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I think that we can agree that it was, at worst, a stupid mistake made by one individual, who may have simply been trying to introduce a bit of much needed humour into proceedings (Tusk that is), it misfired, but that is insufficient reason for the hardening of attitudes against the whole of the EU. There may be general irritation within the EU. establishment regarding the British position - how could there not be ? Britain is saying 'We want your trade but we don't want you'. 'We want unrestricted access to your markets, without paying a penny for it and, (as has been said before on here) we don't want you coming to us - we will decide who comes, when, and for how long' The EU. cannot support any idea which erects walls between people, and which restricts EU. citizens rights - and this includes restricting the rights of those Europe friendly Britons who want to remain. It is well known in the EU. that one half of Britain is imposing a judgement upon the other half and that, as a consequence, existing citizens rights will/may be curtailed as a result.

Yes, it was a stupid mistake by Tusk. It does turn people here off the EU.

The freedom of movement of EU workers is a red line for the UK. That's part of what people here voted on. Control over all immigration.

The EU have made it plain they don't want Chequers. I accept that. But if they value trading with the UK (and remember the EU sells more to us, than we sell to them), they need to work with the UK to find a solution or it's WTO. The Norway option is out - it's a terrible deal where Norway pays large sums, has no say over rules and not control on immigration. Canada plus plus looks the best solution as it doesn't interfere with the Single Market. I hope May will adopt this before the Tory Conference.

 

[ELLERS]

Corbyn doesn't personally support a new referendum, but will go along with the party membership if it's what they want.

Stroller I have now seen the news and looked at my first post and they basically mean the same. Although now I have heard the full story I can't see him doing it. He will do his usual noncommittal.
And, I just noticed you mentioned 'democracy' Stroller you are the last person who should be using that word. You have not accepted the democratic vote and would crush democracy to stay in the EU.

 

[ELLERS]

Yes, it was a stupid mistake by Tusk. It does turn people here off the EU.

The freedom of movement of EU workers is a red line for the UK. That's part of what people here voted on. Control over all immigration.

The EU have made it plain they don't want Chequers. I accept that. But if they value trading with the UK (and remember the EU sells more to us, than we sell to them), they need to work with the UK to find a solution or it's WTO. The Norway option is out - it's a terrible deal where Norway pays large sums, has no say over rules and not control on immigration. Canada plus plus looks the best solution as it doesn't interfere with the Single Market. I hope May will adopt this before the Tory Conference.

Maybe when we leave we can do a better deal with Norway....I like Christmas trees.

 

[rangercol]

I think that we can agree that it was, at worst, a stupid mistake made by one individual, who may have simply been trying to introduce a bit of much needed humour into proceedings (Tusk that is), it misfired, but that is insufficient reason for the hardening of attitudes against the whole of the EU. There may be general irritation within the EU. establishment regarding the British position - how could there not be ? Britain is saying 'We want your trade but we don't want you'. 'We want unrestricted access to your markets, without paying a penny for it and, (as has been said before on here) we don't want you coming to us - we will decide who comes, when, and for how long' The EU. cannot support any idea which erects walls between people, and which restricts EU. citizens rights - and this includes restricting the rights of those Europe friendly Britons who want to remain. It is well known in the EU. that one half of Britain is imposing a judgement upon the other half and that, as a consequence, existing citizens rights will/may be curtailed as a result.

So basically, in your opinion, the UK have got everything wrong and the EU have got everything right? The EU are totally democratic and supportive of all the member states? The EU aren't corrupt and their books are always signed off every year? The EU don't want ever closer political ties, along with their own army? The EU aren't basically run by Germany, with a little help from France? The EU isn't a protectionist club that will do anything to protect their undemocratic, elitist club? The EU aren't deliberately playing hard ball in the hope that we will cave in completely, have another vote (as they got the wrong result in the last one) or cancel the whole idea?
The truth is that, our Country has been Euro-sceptic for as long as I can remember. We've always been split over this issue and I suspect that we always will be.
Maybe in a few decade's time everyone will get the chance to re-join in a third referendum.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Sadly I only have the etiquette to be a President of the European Council or a French president

 

[colognehornet]

So basically, in your opinion, the UK have got everything wrong and the EU have got everything right? The EU are totally democratic and supportive of all the member states? The EU aren't corrupt and their books are always signed off every year? The EU don't want ever closer political ties, along with their own army? The EU aren't basically run by Germany, with a little help from France? The EU isn't a protectionist club that will do anything to protect their undemocratic, elitist club? The EU aren't deliberately playing hard ball in the hope that we will cave in completely, have another vote (as they got the wrong result in the last one) or cancel the whole idea?
The truth is that, our Country has been Euro-sceptic for as long as I can remember. We've always been split over this issue and I suspect that we always will be.
Maybe in a few decade's time everyone will get the chance to re-join in a third referendum.

Rather a lot of assumptions there Col.

 

[rangercol]

Rather a lot of assumptions there Col.

All questions I'll think you'll find.

 

[Staines R's]

You've got it all twisted as usual, Ellers. Corbyn and McDonnell have said that they will support a second referendum if the party membership want it. Democracy at work.

It’s a dangerous game he’s playing I feel...I think he’ll gets the backs up of many members (myself included) and disenfranchise many working class voters......I guess only time will tell.

 

[bobmid]

There is a code of diplomacy between nations, Bob. If you're about to declare war, then political leaders can send insulting tweets to other countries and call foreigners liars. But if you want a future relationship, abide by normal practices of civility among diplomats.

The tetchy responses that came from the EU do seem to be as a result of irritation at having to deal with Brexit, when the EU has so many other problems, particularly illegal immigration and the rise of the far right all across Europe. They see the UK as bailing out, even though the problems have to a substantial extent, been created by the EU itself by weak, unpragmatic and over-liberal policies.

War it is then