Holgate and Firmino incident !
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In that context? When the intital melee had completely calmed down? Yeah right oh
Report by Tim Reedy
“Firmino, in retaliation to the push, confronts Holgate, shouting some words at him, to which Holgate does not react.
“Holgate does not compute because Firmino is speaking in Portugese. My findings are that Firmino did not use racist language.
“Instead, he says the words, ‘Es maluco, filho da puta?’, which translates as ‘Are you crazy, you son of a b***h?’. Then Holgate, upon speaking to the referee, thinks that racist language was used and tells the referee, ‘He called me a n****r.’
“It also appears the referee has no idea what Firmino said. When pushed away by a team-mate, Holgate reiterates that he was called a n*****.”
But, while the six clips of the incident we used showed that the Brazilian had uttered a curse in his native Portuguese, according to the lip reader, no evidence of racial abuse was found.
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If true that is a serious allegation as Holgate has no idea what he said and has assumed he said something.
He didn't say I think he said something racist he actually accused him of using the n word.
So that shouldn't be punished then?
Is this also being fueled by the media as I was led to believe cleared up at HT as a misunderstanding?
The issue is there is one second where on one angle fat Kennys head is blocking view and on other side lallana hair is in the way. In that one second firmino looks on one angle to utter a couple more words
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Vid is very clear firmino originally accused of spitting by BBC Salford but that is the word puta. You can clearly see Kenny in shot as the parties separate more words are said. AND HOLGATE DIDN'T REACT TO PUTA, IT'S THOSE 2 WORDS AFTER
The issue is what were they.
If you look at normal speed the ref blew his whistle when holgate pushed firmino. Watch this
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There is literally no time for madley yo deal with holgate before the fight (so called) and holgate accusing firmino.
You can see all and sundry having their input and madleys panicking. You can clearly see madleys tell several players he didn't hear it. You can see Everton boss cover their mouths talking.
It's clear if firmino didn't react madleys giving us a free.
So..... the core issue is about other angles does any angle show those words spoken as lallana pulls him away.
That's why the report that cleared Firmino used 6 different camera angles
I think my attempt to lighten the mood passed you by although to be fair it was pretty feeble so no problem. Anyway, you raise a couple of things (and in later posts) that deserve discussion so here's my tuppence worth after a bit of time to look at the situation.
I have seen nothing to back up Holgate's claim, however, that does not mean I do not believe him or that he has made a malicious allegation. Assuming that Firmino has not used that word ( big assumption i know) and we got to hear a recording of the incident my view of Holgate probably would not change. Imo Holgate's sudden reaction shows that in his mind he heard that word and he is unlikely to change his mind without some serious evidence that we are very unlikely to have.
in the heat of the moment with adrenaline levels very high your brain plays many tricks on you and in his mind he hears an insult that is etched into his consciousness due to the deep and dark connotations of the word.This does not make him a bad person, this makes him normal and is only one of the reasons why the FA should not and will not punish him for the claim.
That last paragraph sort of answers your question about why people might use that sort of language, when you are angry (firmino rightly was) and want to hurt people with that instant reaction you will say things without thinking of the consequences and most people know how hurtful racist insults can be so they automatically jump to them. You say that football has moved on here and it has but only because society has moved on, but whilst racist language is so meaningful in society it will continue to be used as insults. We have all said hurtful things in the heat of the moment and then later thought, what the hell was I thinking why on earth did I say that and are deeply remorseful about what we have said.
Just to add some more fuel to the fire on here , I think it goes from what I have said re emotional rather than logical reactions that if guilty of using racist language in that scenario the punishment should be no more than for a physical reaction.
Yep I did miss your jesting
I get your point about a racist insult in the heat of the moment being viewed as much as a violent physical conduct I.e 3 games ban but I don't agree. That is exactly what I meant by changing the culture. Let's assume that he's said the word or words . It now looks as if he didn't say the offending words.
We simply have to change that attitude of resorting to verbal racist abuse (in a few people) in the heat of the moment. It would be more acceptable (controversial statement here I know?) for him to have pushed or even slapped Holgate.
Like the Suarez incident has shown,
Racist abuse >>> violent physical conduct.
He was right by the referee at that moment though. Anything he said in that moment the ref would've heard, and it also would've been picked up by Jon Moss and the other officials on the mic. I'm sure if he shouted "n*****" right by the referee then something would've been reported or done about it straight away.
Dangerous territory there.Yep I did miss your jesting
I get your point about a racist insult in the heat of the moment being viewed as much as a violent physical conduct I.e 3 games ban but I don't agree. That is exactly what I meant by changing the culture. Let's assume that he's said the word or words . It now looks as if he didn't say the offending words.
We simply have to change that attitude of resorting to verbal racist abuse (in a few people) in the heat of the moment. It would be more acceptable (controversial statement here I know?) for him to have pushed or even slapped Holgate.
Like the Suarez incident has shown,
Racist abuse >>> violent physical conduct.
Example.
Deliberately causing physical harm to someone is way worst than verbal abuse.
If I deliberately go out to break someone's legs, you telling me I should not be punished as severely as a verbal exchange?
Why are we making out that any of that alleged comments are worse than the initial incident.
There will only be a few who would say the push was not dangerous and stupid. It was also malicious and thought about in advance as he clearly shoves firmino after the ball had gone.
Both actions are equally as bad however as it stands there is only proof on one of them
Yet all of the talk surrounds the unproven incident
This is strange
I would assume that's reasonable to think.
there's just 2 words or so not accounted for. surely someone has some angle on it.
it happened very quick and ref for me is surrounded so im sure he will say he doesnt know whats said. thats his out, along with the follow up.
I am at this point assuming firmino will get 3 games for violent conduct and foul and abusive language.
I think holgate will get off scot free as I reckon ref was only giving yellow max before incident.
it's the rest then... if firmino is given more there has to be some evidence of the words said as it's implausible that he switched to English and shouted what holgate said
cos the unproven is far more serious and must be clarified.
lfc have a 17 year old who we are supporting in a racial abuse case and we cannot square that with a 26 year old committing the same offense for us.
we must have clarity. nobody should berate holgate as a young man standing up for himself after if it is a misunderstanding.
the more people stand up the better.
What did firminho do that can be classed as violent conduct that Holgate didn't do?
Why is one a yellow the other a 3 game ban?
Also these missing 2 words not accounted for, who alledges they have been made?
history is showing us this is in fact the case.
I have long held the view if you do damage and a player is out for 6 months 3 games is completely inadequate.
all things being equal if everyone made honest attempts to make a tackle and it goes wrong fine... 3 games.
but they dont.
and going about racially abusing, sledging and bringing hatred into the game to gain advantage is far worse than an honest tackle gone wrong.
two wrongs don't make a right.
violent conduct should have a scale based on severity, potential severity and outcome... ref just gives red card and assessment decides rest.
racial abuse excludes communities. that a player thinks he can get away with it cannot stand like it occurred in moscow with brewster... so we have to show at home even angry words cannot stand.
but we need to know none of those last two words were not racial abuse. we need to know 100% cos young lads at lfc need to know it and for firmino himself his rep is on the line.
I will bet you when he goes to next away game he will get the we know what you are abuse song.
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