HornArt - I thought the situation had defused I didn't intend to inflame the situation or expect you to be upset by a silly give away remark which was an attempt to lighten the atmosphere. Yes you did get 250 for starting the thread - no I did not think you did it for the points - I know why you did it you've told us once or twice already I think on most of the threards, but look back at my comment again you will see the character was laughing, meant tongue in cheek. Try to cool down nobody wants all of this nastyness.
Slightly surprised by this OFH. last posted at 9.47 and then kept mouth shut for 3 hours. But post #97 by Dan addressed him directly and so post#98 was a simple reply. I always try to reply if someone makes a point to me as I think it is rude not to - which is why I am replying to you. Why do you not address Dan for bringing it back up? I have nothing new to say so will say nothing more on the subject until I do except to reply to a direct comment to me.
Who is giving horns?? I cant see anyone putting words in anyone else's mouth. I have been criticised many many times both on here and else where and i know i will continue to be. The problem with the whole thing is it is bound to create an argument, the riots are a contentious topic and one many have conflicting views on. In the nest there are fewer arguments because they are punctuated by the general conversation. The Nest was created as an off topic thead when we were back on the old 606. It allowed for any conversation we wanted and it remains that way today. You have stated you don't want to be told what to do (which you haven't, they were polite requests) but you are then telling others that you don't want the topic on conversation in the nest. Well to be brutally honest, of you don't like it, don't read it. People will have what ever conversations they like where they like, that's what a forum is for. The points are awarded for each post and you get more for more complex things i think, for instance- you might get 5 for a single comment but 10 for a reply with quote. I don't know the workings of it, i don't think anyone is an expert on it, but very few actually pay close attention to it. They don't mean anything. I am not having a go btw, just being honest, however brutal it may seem.
Charlie - I have checked and you don't get 250 points for creating a thread. I should not have bitten and apologise but am feeling a bit "got at" so am stupidly being defensive. Sorry
Love this; http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/9187968.Pub_heroes_chase_off_bookmaker_burglars/ref=twt/ Only problem is, is if vigilante groups are formed and take matters too far! I have absolutely no problem with these people taking things into their own hands to protect their neighbourhoods... just as long as they don't lower themselves to the rioters mentality!
Does this mean these people are just opportunists rather than people with 'no future', like these people want us to believe; "Deputy manager Stuart Rankin, 30, said: “The pub just emptied. I was behind the bar and by the time I got to the door they were halfway down the road chasing after these blokes, who leapt into a BMW and drove off." A BMW????? Wish I had a BMW..... Maybe I'll moan and go loot one
Sorry Leo, i probably should have let it lie, but i dont like to ignore comments directed directly at me. I will leave it at that, i have said my piece and unless someone has something to say directly to me or i have to step in as a moderator i will not comment. If people wish to talk to me, i am happy to PM back and forth, as it take the argument of the public thread.
You have not put words in anyones mouth Dan - until now - that was others. I know I will irritate you all again for repeating what has been said by Art but I do so as he seems to be misunderstood and am simply trying to explain it more clearly. He said he wanted a thread on the topic as he felt it justified. He did not say it should not be discussed in the Nest. A major topic like this distorts the nest but that is not the same as "telling others that I don't want it in the nest" - just that I find it better to pick off big issues in specific forums. "people will have what ever conversations they want where they want - is exactly what he argued FOR. - and been told off by you and Norway for it. Dan - why don't you set up a thread with Art or PM him
Guys - look I am sorry - I am coming to realise I was wrong to get involved in this and my posts are getting more and more stupid and defensive - Leo - thanks for your support but I am not going to continue this
Ok then, i am sorry for my part in things. I consider this matter closed now. Lets get back to normal service.
I am pleased that so many people have been arrested so quickly and that Courts are to sit over night to deal with those accused. This is part of what we need to dampen down the immediate problem. Hopefully the knowledge that there is a good chance they will be caught will deter some from joining in the affray. One good thing that could come out of all of this mess is if the politicians actually sit down and listen to people's views on all of it. There has to be a change of attitudes - not only to prevent "tolerance" of the intolerable but also to try to set what the Police can and can't do - we seem to be more hamstrung than most other nations now in how they can act, and we need to consider what penalties are right for this sort of wanton criminalism - whether that be boot camps, some new form of conscription or whatever. It would also be good if some people could also look though at how to try to reduce the growing alienation against society of some particualrly young people - this will only happen again and again if they do not feel part of the society they live in
I think you have made a good post HornArt showing that many people are not sure how to deal with some of the people involved. One thing that is tried out here is the clean up the mess approach. 12 weeks of physical work, 7 days a week, for 10 hours a day. How successful it is in stopping re-offending I don't know, but I think it is followed up with a temporary job for six months and then sometimes a commune will make that into a permanent job if they feel they can fund it.
I agree in part ART but on the flip side people get to choose how they integrate and to what extent and unfortunately these rioters, in my opinion, are showing a distinct lack or disdain for many of the personal traits I hold in esteem. I too have become very disillusioned with things over the past few years as we continually see Governments and people in control make poor decisions and then explain it all away. It's not good enough, but honestly what do we expect, they're only human after all and whether we like it or not why would some guy from the Sedgefield constituency or some other from a posh London constituency be able to get anything more right than someone else off the street? To put faith in Government and so on I have found is to set yourself up for defeat. However, on the flip side, there is something to be said for sticking with community and society and joining in. The same "They're only human after all" line could be used for the rioters except for the fact that like terrorists, they are not playing by the unwritten rules, therefore to me all bets are off. If it were left to me, every single one of the rioters identified would lose privileges. If they are on benefits, those benefits would be gone, if they work for a living I'd have them work for free for a period of time, assuming they could stand the peer pressure at work, if not they'd do community service and would be branded with applicable clothing, what's more I'd have them repay for all the damage they caused as well as work the clean-up. Want to behave like animals, expect to be treated like them. All ridiculous ideas, but it's just to easy to be a complete waster and that is what these individuals have chosen. Treat them that way for a while and then see if they want back in. I'm betting the majority of them will. Public session where they are demeaned wouldn't go amiss either (Covent Garden and Billingsgate Market must have some rotten fish and fruit available?)
I quite like the dea OFH mentioned earlier - lock them up awaiting trial and make sure that is a couple of months - make it unpleasant enough that most would not want to go back there
Its a nice idea, but the issue there is the lawyers will then plead that the courts have broken the persons rights under Article 6 ECHR. I have to agree to the idea of leaving the ECHR but it is a dangerous idea and should not be taken lightly. However, we could then limit some things and loosen some of the stupid things.
Normality seems to be returning. Good to hear that many cases referred to crown court for sentencing as magistrates limited to 6 months. A few inside for 20 to life should make the taggers on stop then just the hardcore to sort. A real worry must be how to stop this sort of thing being repeated with a terrorist organisation pulling the strings, the distraction value tying up the police force would make it a very dangerous tactic.
Things haven't changed much over the years. I can remember having to avoid skinhead gangs on the streets in the 70s, inner city riots and picket violence in the 80s and so on - not to mention the yob rule of some Brits in spanish holiday resorts. I read recently that the chances of being physically attacked in London at night are 3 times higher than in any other European capital (Only Dublin is comparable). What also doesn't change is that every time something like this happens the bluebottles start buzzing and muttering things about work camps, conscription and so on. As if the short sharp shock treatment of the Thatcher years worked ! The persistence of the Yob culture in England over so many years demonstrates for me that the actual sentencing (Whether hard or soft) does not matter very much in places where the police clear up rate is only 5 or 10%, as in some of our inner cities. I am not defending the rioters here in any way, or excusing them, by saying that the transformation of Britain over the last 30 years or so (Post industrial) has broken up communities and weakened even further the role of the family in British society. With regard to the last point. The British work the longest hours in Europe, often unsocial hours and often for several employers. Compare shop opening hours in Britain with for example Germany, even at times of the year like Easter, and you come to the conclusion that no time is left for many families in England. The family is the most important organ of cohesion and law and order in any society, and it's failed in many stratas of English society. For the youth in underprivileged areas living in a society which has no time for losers, which reverberates the same message constantly that anybody can be successfull despite a wealth of evidence to the contrary, deprived of the sort of class solidarity of previous generations, and with no form of political representation whatsoever - life is really the pits. To see the gap growing between rich and poor - to see the lifestyle excesses of the rich and famous - and to see high class crime ie. from bankers, corrupt politicians go unpunished. To see cuts in youth centres and other social services to pay for the crimes of bankers and speculators whilst ploughing money into image projects like the Olympics is enough to drive anyone to the barrackades !
