These riots have brought up a lot of borderline racism and insulting class comments... I'm really not sure what I disagree with most...
When you say Government, do you mean the Tories or the previous regime who thought we shoudl be spending money we don't have? I don't agree with all the Tories cuts (I'm at a Gov't agency and facing redundancy, so pension cuts won't even effect me), but I do know something has to be done! I don't believe the cutting of 'Yoof centres' and such like have anything to do with this. This is merely an excuse. There was plenty of youth crime before they shut these. The only 'youth' club I went to as a kid was the Cubs, and I think I turned out pretty ok - and the fact that my future is insecure, doesn't mean I want to go out and damage other people's lives, property and livelihoods! I will work my arse off to find another job when I can! I went to Uni, and am still in debt from it! For me, the problem is in society in general, and has been heading this way for years - maybe even 20 years when the Premier League started, making it into a money machine, creating extremely rich people out of people who the 'common man' used to relate to! The gap between the poor and the rich grows, which for me is fine because ANYONE can make it rich if they put their mind to it. The problem is shows like X-Factor and Big Brother - it has made unrealistic expectations on people. People think they have a right to something without really working for it. These youngsters think they are owed a life, where in reality, they need to go to school, knuckle down hard and the rewards that come will be good! This country is in a state at the moment... but it has been heading this way for years! Too many lazy people expect to be looked after. Nothing in this life should come for free... but it does! As for the police... in general, they do a fantastic job and still think we have one of the best forces in the world! They have had to deal with so much thrown at them (literal and metaphorically), but have to stand there and take it... and if they have go to defend themselves by hitting one of these scum, then it is them who are derided! Rioters know they can throw bricks at them and if the police retaliate, the PC Brigade will be up in arms about this thug's 'human rights'. I don;t agree with simpky just shooting these people... but they do need better laws and equipment to be able to defend themselves and the public they serve - and also when they put their life on the line to arrest them, that the law will back them up!
How about the community in Clapham that all turned up and cleaned up the mess in the town centre left by the looters. Bit more of this and perhaps it will stop.
Art we have agreed to disagree , let it lie please! Most of that 60 was me asking for people to refrain I had about 4 hrs sleep yesterday through carrying my usual work plus the extra workload received from here and 99% was from this thread ! I understand your ideals and happen to agree with most , However please show a little consideration to the workload of others If a polite request is made would it really hurt not to respect that wish ! Remember Mick has put a lot of time and effort and his own money into this site , surely that gives him some say! If this place was no longer here than I would be a little concerned that our community built up on 606 and here would be come fragmented! All Im saying is give the guy his dues!
That is the pleasing thing from all this... the communities pulling together to stand up against these people! Fantastic to see and hopefulyl none of these will be hurt because of it!
It has also shown that there are far too many people who have a blatent disregard for others. Small shopkeepers who have done little wrong finding their business in ruins, people today wondering if they have still got a home or has it been fired, people being treated for injuries simply for trying to protect others and their property, people in fear of going about their normal lives, need I go on?
NW - The way I read Syd's request, it was to avoid cluttering up the boards with mulitple riot threads, and that he would merge all the ones on the General Chat board. I think one on our board isn't too bad a thing. But, I can also understand your reasoning... and the one thing we don't want is non-Watford fans seeing a riot thread and spouting absolute nonsense. We are lucky enough to have one of the few boards where we can have reasoned debate without any petty name calling. People from other forums wouldn't really come into the Nest, so was a reasonable request to keep it in there - but for such a topic as big as this, it maybe one of those that needed it's own thread... but just one!
What everyone happily ignores when it comes to attacking Labour's spending is the fact that when we sell our shares in the banks, most of the deficit will be covered if the markets aren't too much of a mess. I'm all for spending on Education and the NHS, you can't take the cost of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq into account as no-one knows if the Tories would have followed or not. What Dave and his rich Bullingdon buddies are doing is trying to force loads of cuts on false propaganda, whilst doing nothing to fix this country. All this talk of the 'PC brigade' drives me nuts. When the students were being charged by horses and beaten with batons for doing a civilised protest against unfair tuition fee hikes, they were meant to accept it? In France they have similar problems to the riots here on a weekly basis, but their Police force can deal with it. If you really think that everyone that 'reads the Guardian/liberals/the PC brigade' wants the rioters to escape unpunished then you're very wrong, the government and the Police are entirely to blame for letting this get out of hand, maybe the recent Tory cuts on the Police budget might have something to do with the escalation of the problem...
The proud Englishmen in the EDL/NF have been doing this for decades, maybe that's where they got their inspiration from?
Actually you have not written most of the posts on here and if you had written none the debate would not have suffered too much. Did 30 odd posts cause you so much time? Reading your profile you spend 99% or more time on here anyway. Before you Modded the site there were disagreements that resolved themselves as they tend to do here because we are reasonable people - please do not see yourself as quite so essential. I will respect Mick and Syd's views but not just do everything they say. In what way would you job have been easier yesterday if this debate were contained within the Nest? I resent you keep picking on me and telling me what to do - I am aware you do not agree with me - but if you feel I have overstepped the mark then ban me - or better still politely ask me to leave - I will do so if that is what you want
But don't you think political correctness has gone too far? And yes, I do think Labour's spending went too far! I am not talking about the banks here, but the 'Vicky Pollard' generation where if they want some more cash, they have another baby! That a teenager has a child and knows if they have a few more, they won't have to work a day in their life, and then their boyfriend will claim benefits too because they know if he gets a job, their benefits will get cut! There are people who haven't worked a day in their life and it is absolute rubbish saying there are no jobs out there... there are just jobs they can't be arsed to do Also (and I'm not racist or xenophobic) that an immingrant can come into this country, claim for benefits almost straight away and then bring their family over. I have no problem with someone seeking asylum, or someone who contributes to the economy, but the scroungers we don't need! Britain has become an easy touch And sorry, but I actually agree with tuition fees! Education is meant to give you an advantage in life... so when these people come out of Uni, they should have better prospects than someone who hasn't! Yes, the gov't and Uni's should reinvest that tuition money they receive into creating more jobs - but I have no problem with them going up. What I do believe is that they should also have a scholarship system as well - a small percentage of uni intakes should be on a scholarship! Maybe you'll argue the Tories started all this off.... But Labour had been in power long enough and did nothing about it!
I'm sorry Toby but your last paragraph mirrors your avatar, "the government and the police are entirely to blame for letting this get out of hand". I think the lawless thugs should take full responsibility. This has nothing to do with protesting, I along with 750,000 civil servants went on a peaceful march in March through central London to protest about the cuts, I face losing my job, a job I've been in for 21 years, a job I thought would see me through to retirement, a job with a decent pension that would keep me in food in my old age. Now I will have to work another 6 years and pay more into my pension and get less out, that's even if I have a job by then. You didn't see me or my fellow marchers rioting or looting. That is opportunist thuggery, pure and simple.
Art , do want you want mate, as whatever I say or do will not please you anyway ! As stated whether you go or stay is your choice, personally I hope you stay ! last night Dan posted up the rules of this forum plus his ideas of the unwritten rules!I happen to agree with what he said! Also I dont spend 99% of my time here bit hard when doing 9-12plus hr shifts at work! To answer another of your queries No one is senior to anyone else here ,as long as the basic forum rules are adherred to ! IMO the Mods role is to actually help and assist people with questions or queries about the site ,and to be a conduit between site owners and others! IE if ypu have a good idea of an improvement for the phone app (even if I disagree with it ) I will pass it on the relevant people! Believe it or not this is one of better boards on the site , so we must be doing something right to have the amount of members we have!
The Benefits paid to those people account for such a tiny % of spending that you can't count it as a problem, unless you're talking about the long-term impact of people not having a job all their life, which is something we can agree on. I hate them, the new Jeremy Kyle nation, it's one of the main reasons I'm not going to stay in the UK all my life. By immigrants what do you mean? Europeans have to right to come here freely and claim benefits, but if you're not from Europe it's a lot more complicated than that, you cannot say that it's easy to get into the UK if you're not European, let alone bring all your family here. Most immigrants want to work too, and take the jobs that the 'Jeremy Kyle nation' won't take, I don't see where your problem is there... I've just finished University, with a good degree, and trust me there aren't 'loads of opportunities' out there. This country is a mess, most people will never be able to afford to buy a house, yet you agree with young people being needing to get 40k of debt before they reach 25, just to go to Uni? That's fair... We're dealing with the children of the broken Maggie generation, whose parents where disillusioned with the system and are doing nothing to help. I don't agree with the riots, but they are only happening because they are being allowed to happen. This could be stopped very easily, and it has nothing to do with the 'PC brigade'.
I never said that the rioters have no blame attached, but it is purely opportunistic. This could all have been stopped on the first night, but somehow the government and the Police have let it go on with only a few arrests. How can you explain the handling of the students on the tuition fees march compared to what happened in London? There were 100x more people on the march, but they were all contained. Why not the rioters?
I think the main difference between these riots and the student protests is the preparedness. This escalated ever so quickly, and the police just wasn't ready for it. No-one seemed to want to make the decisions with their bosses out of the country, and police were spread so thin, they were uneasy to 'get in there' if they didn't feel they had the back up! I think if we had the police that was out there last night the night before, we would have been seeing far more retaliation beyond the student protests!
The fact that they weren't prepared for the first night could be an excuse, but it should have stopped there. The difference between these riots and the student march is that the students were dealt with a lot more force than the rioters were, just because they were easier targets. I still think that the Police let it happen more than usual to force the Tories to abandon the budget cuts on policing. You last sentence just proves that the government and the Police messed up.
I'm sorry, but I don't really blame the police on this one... the 'foot patrol' ones, anyway. If there are about 10-15 of you, and 50-100 people in front of you, with an assortment of weapons, I wouldn't want to charge in, and what help will it do if half of you get injured - it will only flare up violence against people rather than property! Each night escalated considerably, but there was no way of knowing if it would, and by how much! Hindsight is a wonderful thing. How many 'bobbies' has these cuts actually taken down from the front line? Fair enough if you are talking dozens on each force, but if you are talking the Met has lost a couple, then those people would have made little difference!
Great to see , a bit of blitz mentality if you like , Normal everyday people doing their bit to stand up to the yob culture we seem to have entered!
