Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...
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There was a really good point made by Piskie and Stan on the other thread. Unlike the Remain campaign, you cannot find a single impartial expert giving a prediction that we will be better off economically if we leave.
The best that any neutral can come up with is "we can't say for sure we'll be worse off" which everyone seems to be arguing about and being distracted by. That plays into the Leave campaign's hands because it's very difficult to prove either way. BUT I think the real argument SHOULD focus on my first paragraph. Can you quote any neutral economist or expert who is predicting we'll be better off? No. And there's nothing to argue there.
The best that any neutral can come up with is "we can't say for sure we'll be worse off" which everyone seems to be arguing about and being distracted by. That plays into the Leave campaign's hands because it's very difficult to prove either way. BUT I think the real argument SHOULD focus on my first paragraph. Can you quote any neutral economist or expert who is predicting we'll be better off? No. And there's nothing to argue there.
I've made it clear I'm firmly in the Remain camp, so I imagine I'll be considered biased here, but I've received two leaflets in the last week - one from each side.
The Leave one was still peddling the discredited myth that the EU costs us £350m per week, that leaving would put that money into the NHS, and that we're going to be inundated with immigrants taking our jobs/school and hospital places/benefits, whatever.
The Remain leaflet has concentrated solely upon the advantages of staying in.
This to me, is a much better way of going about things, and in stark contrast to some of the wild claims and accusations we've endured over the last few months.
The Leave one was still peddling the discredited myth that the EU costs us £350m per week, that leaving would put that money into the NHS, and that we're going to be inundated with immigrants taking our jobs/school and hospital places/benefits, whatever.
The Remain leaflet has concentrated solely upon the advantages of staying in.
This to me, is a much better way of going about things, and in stark contrast to some of the wild claims and accusations we've endured over the last few months.
I've had both leaflets today. First thing I saw was the £350m claim which pissed me off bcos it's a proven lie.
Then I read all the other subheadings and EVERY single one was proven to be bullshit too
The Turkey one is one of the worst. If that alone doesnt show this is about race nothing does!
Then I read all the other subheadings and EVERY single one was proven to be bullshit too
The Turkey one is one of the worst. If that alone doesnt show this is about race nothing does!
They are probably all printed quote a bit ago. Same as farage's poster.
They are all committed to it at this point
They are all committed to it at this point
And that is exactly why you're all shaking your heads at the **** load of people saying **** you I'm out almost half the population...there's a distinct "vote my way or you're an idiot" (or worse ^) elitist arrogance from many in the Remain camp...it may be a juvenile response, it may unwise to make a decision based on that response but many are voting out because they're sick of being called idiots that should listen to their betters...be it the rich tories who condescendo look after them while ****ing them over with cuts and wages if jobs at all or either side of Labour who either sucked big businesses cock while in power or live in a nice southern bubble discussing Marx over a nice bottle of bubbly.
I mean...ten years of "big business is scum", "bankers ruined your little lives" and "don't trust the imf" etc etc turns suddenly into trust them all!
Treat people like idiots and that's what you'll get....emotive decision making...every single one in the top tier of the Remain camp has at some point in the recent past treated the working class this way...same with the academic elites...the media etc...why on earth do people think they will trust them now...whether or not they are finally speaking the truth it's irrelevant...it's the boy who cried wolf effect come back to bite them all in the arse....worse apparently now almost half the population are nothing but "racists"...
Over simplified strategy that has back fired...
saying all independent experts say leaving will cause an economic crash has no effect on a large proportion of the population as they no longer care or believe anything they are told by the establishment. The tone of the referendum debate has just added another layer to this with the remain camp making fairly ridiculous claims themselves i.e. every pensioner will suffer a £3000.00 loss , we will be closer to third world war. i am in the remain camp and my (postal) vote is already in (though Clarkson agreeing with my decision made me wonder if i could recall it) but in a lot of ways it was done with a heavy heart as i have no faith in the EU project and it is heading into very dangerous grounds in my opinion .
The constant implication that anyone worried about immigration is a racist has led to peoples worries not being addressed and from there to the situation that a wannabee Oswald Mosley impersonator leads a party that garners millions of votes in a general election - now those chickens may come home to roost
whilst i always knew i would be voting remain there was/has been the wierd thing that if i listen to the leave camp it pushes me more towards remain but the remain spokesperson then makes me doubtful about that decision
Both camps should be ashamed of the tone and intellectual standard of the campaigning throughout the referendum debate which has dragged the political "class" into even further derision to the point a huge chunk of the population wouldn't believe the average politician if they told them the earth was round
Both camps should be ashamed of the tone and intellectual standard of the campaigning throughout the referendum debate which has dragged the political "class" into even further derision to the point a huge chunk of the population wouldn't believe the average politician if they told them the earth was round
Yup...I've said I'm "remain" already on here for very specific reasons based on where I live.
I'm sure someone could intelligently pull those reasons apart. Haven't heard anyone do it because both main camps leaders don't bother about little ol' Northern Ireland's views as part for the course. The only "out" camp politically here are the DUP who are Arseholes and haven't actually campaigned outside their areas.
That doesn't mean I don't know people voting out..some I see with valid reasons others for reasons I think are errors in fact or judgement...they are certainly not idiots or racists. Cynical of literally everything they've been told? Definitely. I'll guarantee being called names won't change their minds though...the opposite in fact.
I share the exact same sentiments as you about the EU institutions and the motives and visions of some of the main players on the continent. To the point I think it's doomed to ultimate failure...because it's another set of elitists puffed up by their absolute confidence they are the only ones that know the "right way".
Lol...I broke my own critique about name calling in regards to the DUP...let me be better....not a lot of ground I share with them politically or socially lol...
I find it very interesting to note the more Cameron shuts up the better.
Like... it's really the majority elected tories but nobody wants to hear a word they say.
Like... it's really the majority elected tories but nobody wants to hear a word they say.
I wonder how many people actually are open to persuasion, tbh. If this board is a microcosm then not too many, I'd have thought - most here seem to sit firmly on one side or the other of the fence, albeit with some reservations.
Although I fully accept that not everyone who wants out is a xenophobe, I think they are allying themselves with some very dangerous groups. I wonder if you took those sorts out of the campaign what the percentages would be then? Are there any similar factions in the Remain camp who could be accused of equally unacceptable motives?
For me, you can forget about all the details, we can never be certain of them anyway, just look at the big picture. Do you really want to open the door to the likes of Farage and Johnson? Because a leave vote will bolster their careers no end. Do we want to be politically isolated with someone like that at the helm?
Unfortunately this reminds me so much of the advent of Thatcherism, something which I hoped I'd never see again in my lifetime.
Truly frightening.
Although I fully accept that not everyone who wants out is a xenophobe, I think they are allying themselves with some very dangerous groups. I wonder if you took those sorts out of the campaign what the percentages would be then? Are there any similar factions in the Remain camp who could be accused of equally unacceptable motives?
For me, you can forget about all the details, we can never be certain of them anyway, just look at the big picture. Do you really want to open the door to the likes of Farage and Johnson? Because a leave vote will bolster their careers no end. Do we want to be politically isolated with someone like that at the helm?
Unfortunately this reminds me so much of the advent of Thatcherism, something which I hoped I'd never see again in my lifetime.
Truly frightening.
All true...but then I know plenty of people that have gone on marches (including me in my youth) for various causes knowing theyre could or would be extremists walking the same path..be it anarchists or the likes of the animal liberation lot.
As for bolstering those two..I think it will be very short term..neither is actually a good politician...Farrage? Whole career built on euroskepticism...if he gets what he wants...what does he do then? Especially if the dire warnings of the Remain camp come true...he's a protest movement without which he's just a loud mouthed twat that likes the pub...
Perhaps - but I don't want to see us sold down the river just so Farage gets his comeuppance.
I agree that all of us with any beliefs have had to put up with some strange bedfellows, but I for one would disassociate myself from their activities, if not their cause.
Anyway, game starting now - a little light relief.
A whole lot of words there to say you're going to **** on the living room rug to spite us all.
So if we leave the EU they will stop trading with us, that will mean the loss of millions of pounds to the German, French, Italian and Spanish car industries (good for Japan and Korea though, they may even build more manufacturing plants here), Italy sell millions of pounds worth of White goods into Britain not to mention plastic and rubber manufacturing machinery such as intermixes and extruders (we may have to start making these things ourselves again like we used to).
It will be interesting to see how these country's explain to companies like BMW, VW, Mercedes, Fiat etc that they may have to shut some of their plants or lose quite a proportion of staff because they don't trade with us anymore.
Yes it could work both ways but in reality little will change because it makes no financial sense.
It will be interesting to see how these country's explain to companies like BMW, VW, Mercedes, Fiat etc that they may have to shut some of their plants or lose quite a proportion of staff because they don't trade with us anymore.
Yes it could work both ways but in reality little will change because it makes no financial sense.
Jordan Henderson voting on the EU referendum.
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