Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[Ivan Dobsky]

Hmmmm.... whilst i don't think the economy will get better, i thought i would put the line in bold highlighted to test Just did a quick google and voila

http://www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk/about-us/

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron - this suggests 1 in 10 support brexit.

For those too lazy about the leading economists in link 1:

PROFESSOR PATRICK MINFORD
Professor of Economics at Cardiff University, formerly director and founder of Liverpool Research Group which built the ‘Liverpool Model’ Of the UK economy, which was hugely influential in forecasting and policy analysis in the 1980s.

RYAN BOURNE
Head of public policy at the Institute of Economic Affairs. Having previously worked for the Centre for Policy Studies and Frontier Economics, he has written widely on a range of economic issues.

ROGER BOOTLE
Chairman of Capital Economics, Europe’s largest macroeconomics consultancy. He is a specialist adviser to the House of Commons Treasury Select Committee and the author of several award winning books on the economy.

etc etc

Also the managing director of Goldman Sachs (The invesment bank which predicted the 2008 crash) David Sismey also believes money would be saved in a brexit and supports it.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-vote-300-business-leaders-064951596.html

Minford - the Mad Monk of Moneterism, adored by the market spivs as the man who facilitated our manufacturing industry's demise. Btw, as you set great store in the fact that most economists missed the 08 crash (including Minford) what are your views on Cable, the man who warned us it was coming?

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

If you keep on listening to right wing politicians who i agree are only in it to gain power and are conning the public big time. How anyone can dismiss 90% of very influential people and 9 out of 10 economists that the whole of the UK will suffer huge losses and job losses that even Gove had to admit to and price rises, mortgage rises as stated by mortgage companies would definitely happen and all this with significant less money in your pocket. How can you let your self be conned by someone like Boris who says he cant tell you what coming out will actually means, His ploy is to put fear into peoples minds using immigration saying we can control our boarders.....Is he having a laugh or what.. If it was not for the EU boarder control we would have a lot more asylum seekers here. Germany take 6 times more asylum seekers than us and France take 4 times as many so we are doing pretty well in the UK and if we leave then all EU boarders don't. need to help us anymore and as we are an island then how are we going to stop the floodgates opening then. So Boris and his banker of putting fear into people with immigration is nonsense and flawed and the true scaremongering that is taking peoples minds off the real issues of livelihood and how we are going to cope without our partners in the EU. Now nobody is saying for one minute that the EU is perfect because its not but it looks after women's rights of equal pay,maternity leave and discrimination at the work place. and looks after Part time workers rights. Being with our partners keeps prices low and also looks after your holiday plans to keep prices as low as possible and makes sure you are entitled to be compensated if things go wrong....What this boils down to is who will be better at keeping your standard of living at a decent level and im afraid the right wing politicians Like Boris who is the cheekily chappy in politics is conning you for his own ends and using the public to achieve power not giving a toss about you afterwards saying its a price worth paying......He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth so what does he know about a price worth paying.... has he ever had to Rob Peter to pay Paul or go without food so your children can have a meal. Think carefully and try and see the big picture rather than going gun ho putting your cross on someone you later regret because once its done there will be no turning back...

Who've you copied and pasted this from Dai?

 

[swanseaandproud]

nobody

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

nobody

Who wrote it for you then? Because you sure as hell didn't as there isn't enough grammatical errors in your post

 

[swanseaandproud]

Used spell checker for once...its all my own work...

 

[Kifflom!]

Perhaps you'd be better concentrating on gathering facts, rather than just repeating tired old hearsay.
The Commissioners are accountable to the European Parliament, who are elected by the people of Europe. The Parliament has the power to approve or reject legislation.
The democratic deficit idea was first used in the early days of the Union and probably had more legitimacy then. Over the years the problem has been addressed significantly and the criticism is much less valid now.
Our own parliamentary system is different, but not necessarily any more democratic. Ministers are given portfolios by the PM without any electoral process. Senior Civil Servants are career professionals and unelected for the most part.
The two systems may be structured differently, but neither is inherently more democratic.
Actually, if anything, the European Parliament is better than our own in that minority parties have a greater say in the decisions made than they do here because it utilises PR.

The fact you don't agree with something doesn't make it 'hearsay'.

I hear this argument often but at least you've given it a go. How on earth is the EU more democratic now than before? Nonsense. The track record of the EU is one of increased powers to the unelected Commission at the expense of nation states' sovereignty - which was always Jean Monnet's plan of course.

Comparisons with our own Parliament are risible, though I've already acknowledged that our own system needs overhaul, but you're missing the point. Changes to our system will be a matter for our elected MPs whom we can kick out every five years. Senior civil servants do not propose legislation, our elected representatives do, quite often at the public's direct request or, more usually, based on a political manifesto containing such proposals. This is how the will of the people is carried out, and it's why the UK's model is followed even today in scores of countries around the world. Does it need change? Oh yes, but the EU model is actually closest to that of Soviet Russia, apart from the one party state.

However, you seem to think that the idea of the Commission serving up legislation that no European citizen has asked for so that our elected MEPs can debate it is democracy in action. Do you genuinely believe that? The laws formulated are drafted then initiated, quite often with the sole purpose of further transfer of powers and/or increased integration. To suggest this is even more democratic than our system takes the cake, and I don't think even idiots like Hesseltine and Clarke would agree with that theory.

I realise your premise is based on the debating element of the passage of legislation but you've glossed over its initial creation as if that doesn't matter. In fact it's crucial, because if we as a people cannot create the structures that govern our lives through electing people who promise to pass laws we actually want then that's akin to a dictatorship. You know it, I know it and dressing it up as anything else is laughable. The Commission effectively tells Parliament, "Do you want this law that nobody in Europe has asked for? No? How about this one? OK, chew on that, but by hook or by crook it's happening so tweak it a bit if you like." Is that your idea of democracy? Because it's not mine.

 

[Kifflom!]

Used spell checker for once...its all my own work...

Yeah, and I'm Shirley Bassey.

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

Used spell checker for once...its all my own work...

 

[Kifflom!]

Wrong flag. It's Sweden.

 

[swanseaandproud]

You mention about how being in the EU can you be democratic...well i watched a good programmer today that blew that theory out of the water...The UK has a nerve when over 2/3rds of the electorate did not vote the Tories into power... That soon put this mouthy woman in her place. she was stumped good and proper....

 

[DarloGeordie]

All true, but unfortunately 'We'll lose £350bn a week and then some' doesn't seem to fit on the battlebus like the now proven lie they'e had about £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS. I said it took less than a month for them to lose £250m of that figure' -five-sevenths of their budget - now they've lost the lot. Two more weeks and the plan will be to extract the good fillings from immigrants' teeth when they enter the Farage camps.

We don't get £350bn a week, where is this kind of money coming from. Which countries are putting all this money in so little UK can have £350bn a week. What a load of rubbish.

 

[Diego]

If you really think that the City crashing will someone generate a positive in terms of wealth redistribution, then you seriously need to go and give your head a wobble mate.

Interest rate hikes, unemployment, pay freezes, pension pots decimated, house prices crashing, a complete contraction of the entire economy due to a lack of liquid cash from the man in the streets spending power being massively reduced........sounds idyllic.....

Go on i'll bite.
Why will the City of London crash?
Who has kept our interest rates low for the last 8 years?
Pay freezes have been pretty much the norm for the last 8 years.
Pension pots have taken a massive hit over the last 8 years (and longer).
Why will the man in the street's spending power be massively reduced?
What's going to change for the worse?

 

[saintanton]

The fact you don't agree with something doesn't make it 'hearsay'.

I hear this argument often but at least you've given it a go. How on earth is the EU more democratic now than before? Nonsense. The track record of the EU is one of increased powers to the unelected Commission at the expense of nation states' sovereignty - which was always Jean Monnet's plan of course.

Comparisons with our own Parliament are risible, though I've already acknowledged that our own system needs overhaul, but you're missing the point. Changes to our system will be a matter for our elected MPs whom we can kick out every five years. Senior civil servants do not propose legislation, our elected representatives do, quite often at the public's direct request or, more usually, based on a political manifesto containing such proposals. This is how the will of the people is carried out, and it's why the UK's model is followed even today in scores of countries around the world. Does it need change? Oh yes, but the EU model is actually closest to that of Soviet Russia, apart from the one party state.

However, you seem to think that the idea of the Commission serving up legislation that no European citizen has asked for so that our elected MEPs can debate it is democracy in action. Do you genuinely believe that? The laws formulated are drafted then initiated, quite often with the sole purpose of further transfer of powers and/or increased integration. To suggest this is even more democratic than our system takes the cake, and I don't think even idiots like Hesseltine and Clarke would agree with that theory.

I realise your premise is based on the debating element of the passage of legislation but you've glossed over its initial creation as if that doesn't matter. In fact it's crucial, because if we as a people cannot create the structures that govern our lives through electing people who promise to pass laws we actually want then that's akin to a dictatorship. You know it, I know it and dressing it up as anything else is laughable. The Commission effectively tells Parliament, "Do you want this law that nobody in Europe has asked for? No? How about this one? OK, chew on that, but by hook or by crook it's happening so tweak it a bit if you like." Is that your idea of democracy? Because it's not mine.

What are all these laws that we've all been forced to accept even though none of us ever wanted them?
Do EU commissioners just go to a meeting every now and then and think up a few new bits of legislation for the hell of it? And MEP's say "Oh alright, then, if you insist"?
I think you're just seeing EU bogeymen in the shadows. There's plenty of legislation produced by our national government that a lot of us disagree with.
I've already said the EU is far from perfect, but I've yet to see anyone offer a genuine, plausible explanation of how being out would be an improvement.
Nothing is ever perfect - it's so easy just to find fault everywhere without having to have a constructive alternative.

 

[Kifflom!]

There has been a plethora of laws relating to almost every aspect of our lives that has come out of the EU. The stats show that our MEPs agree with the majority of them but there are still laws passed that our representatives didn't agree with. You asked "Where are all the laws we are forced to accept?" I posted this earlier but you may have missed it: between 2009 and 2014, 1936 votes were held in the European Parliament, and 576 of them were opposed by a majority of the UK’s 73 elected representatives, but of those, 485 were still passed. I hope this answers your question.

But you don't seem to understand how the EU works. The Commissioners don't operate in the way you suggest. They take their lead from the Council. As most countries want further integration that's the agenda that's invariably set. They then pass that agenda to the unelected Commission to make it happen by initiating legislation. The Commission has only once been dissolved (I believe under Borosso but I can't remember exactly) and the European people have no direct say in it. Even then, the process was tortuous and is unlikely to happen again. Of course the UK Government passes laws we don't agree with but they have been elected by the people on a manifesto and can be booted out if they screw things up. That's the point.

I vehemently disagree with the 'bogeymen' point. Good laws like environmental protections have come from the EU. People go on about workers' rights as if the UK would never have passed such legislation anyway. In fact the Equal Pay Act was in force before we joined the EU and we were a driving force in Europe for those rights. Stop believing the BBC bullshit.

I actually think that European people have become so immune to having their democratic choices removed from them that they have become immune to it, maybe even oblivious to it, and don't actually question it any more.

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

We don't get £350bn a week, where is this kind of money coming from. Which countries are putting all this money in so little UK can have £350bn a week. What a load of rubbish.

On the side of the OUT battlebus. I know the figure is dogshit, they know the figure is dogshit. Now it appears that you do too.

 

[Tobes]

There has been a plethora of laws relating to almost every aspect of our lives that has come out of the EU. The stats show that our MEPs agree with the majority of them but there are still laws passed that our representatives didn't agree with. You asked "Where are all the laws we are forced to accept?" I posted this earlier but you may have missed it: between 2009 and 2014, 1936 votes were held in the European Parliament, and 576 of them were opposed by a majority of the UK’s 73 elected representatives, but of those, 485 were still passed. I hope this answers your question.

But you don't seem to understand how the EU works. The Commissioners don't operate in the way you suggest. They take their lead from the Council. As most countries want further integration that's the agenda that's invariably set. They then pass that agenda to the unelected Commission to make it happen by initiating legislation. The Commission has only once been dissolved (I believe under Borosso but I can't remember exactly) and the European people have no direct say in it. Even then, the process was tortuous and is unlikely to happen again. Of course the UK Government passes laws we don't agree with but they have been elected by the people on a manifesto and can be booted out if they screw things up. That's the point.

I vehemently disagree with the 'bogeymen' point. I actually think that European people have become so immune to having their democratic choices removed from them that they have become immune to it, maybe even oblivious to it, and don't actually question it any more.

You keep worrying about the definition of a sausage you Tory blooter, meanwhile the rest of us will continue to focus on what's important I.e. The economy

 

[Kifflom!]

Who said I'm a Tory? Don't be a cretin. Do you really believe the media bullshit that this is more about the Tories than anything else? Rubbish. The far Left have traditionally been anti-EU. Go educate yourself. Why do you think Corbyn has been keeping his head down? In 32 years the first positive thing he said about the EU (an organisation he has always described as "inherently undemocratic") was guess when? 2016.

If you think that shackling the UK to the only failing economic bloc in the world without the ability to negotiate trade deals with the fastest growing countries in the wider world is good for the economy then knock yourself out. Yet another remainer who is happy to throw away our democracy for the so-called 'benefits' of staying in. Yet another remainer scared ****less. Thank god people like you were not around in 1939, you'd have pooped your pants. Get it through your head - the Euro will collapse, it's just a question of when. The EU will follow, at least in its current form.

As for the £350M it's entirely accurate. Yes we get a rebate, but said rebate is decided by the Commission annually. The more successful one's economy the more we pay. It will increase dramatically in future if we remain. Do you honestly think it will come down? Come off it. Personally, I would not have chosen to use that figure, because when I saw it I knew that the more hysterical voices on the Remain side would be screeching about it. In fact, it's closer to £10Bn per year net. They should have pointed out that the IFS (part funded by the EU) has said that if we had stopped paying in 2010 we needn't have had a program of austerity and we could have taken a penny off income tax. As most people seem to be interested what's in their pocket than the fact we've thrown away our rights that's what the Brexiteers should be concentrating on.

 

[Tobes]

Who said I'm a Tory? Don't be a cretin. Do you really believe the media bullshit that this is more about the Tories than anything else? Rubbish. The far Left have traditionally been anti-EU. Go educate yourself. Why do you think Corbyn has been keeping his head down? In 32 years the first positive thing he said about the EU (an organisation he has always described as "inherently undemocratic") was guess when? 2016.

If you think that shackling the UK to the only failing economic bloc in the world without the ability to negotiate trade deals with the fastest growing countries in the wider world is good for the economy then knock yourself out. Yet another remainer who is happy to throw away our democracy for the so-called 'benefits' of staying in. Yet another remainer scared ****less. Thank god people like you were not around in 1939, you'd have pooped your pants. Get it through your head - the Euro will collapse, it's just a question of when. The EU will follow, at least in its current form.

As for the £350M it's entirely accurate. Yes we get a rebate, but said rebate is decided by the Commission annually. The more successful one's economy the more we pay. It will increase dramatically in future if we remain. Do you honestly think it will come down? Come off it. Personally, I would not have chosen to use that figure, because when I saw it I knew that the more hysterical voices on the Remain side would be screeching about it. In fact, it's closer to £10Bn per year net. They should have pointed out that the IFS (part funded by the EU) has said that if we had stopped paying in 2010 we needn't have had a program of austerity and we could have taken a penny off income tax. As most people seem to be interested what's in their pocket than the fact we've thrown away our rights that's what the Brexiteers should be concentrating on.

I did.

There was clues in your posting style.
1. Being a patronising prick
2. Quoting Tony Benn threw gritted teeth
3. Talking absolute bobbins

 

[Kifflom!]

Ah, I see I've got an academic on the hook. I may have to re-evaluate my assessment of you.

 

[Tobes]

As for the £350M it's entirely accurate. Yes we get a rebate, but said rebate is decided by the Commission annually. The more successful one's economy the more we pay. It will increase dramatically in future if we remain. Do you honestly think it will come down? Come off it. Personally, I would not have chosen to use that figure, because when I saw it I knew that the more hysterical voices on the Remain side would be screeching about it. In fact, it's closer to £10Bn per year net. They should have pointed out that the IFS (part funded by the EU) has said that if we had stopped paying in 2010 we needn't have had a program of austerity and we could have taken a penny off income tax. As most people seem to be interested what's in their pocket than the fact we've thrown away our rights that's what the Brexiteers should be concentrating on.

Is it bollocks.

As it not only ignores the rebate but also the public and private sector EU funded projects. The net annual cost is about 45% of that £350m and to try and make out otherwise is yet again disingenuous

The gross cost is less than 1% of GDP (we pay less than everyone else due to the deal Thatcher did), the net cost under 0.5% of GDP.

Those are the accurate facts petal