Off Topic YOUR VOTE COUNTED...

[ValleyGraduate12]

If you really think that the City crashing will someone generate a positive in terms of wealth redistribution, then you seriously need to go and give your head a wobble mate.

Interest rate hikes, unemployment, pay freezes, pension pots decimated, house prices crashing, a complete contraction of the entire economy due to a lack of liquid cash from the man in the streets spending power being massively reduced........sounds idyllic.....

The UK excluding the City is still in recession. If it means that governments take interest in Wales, Scotland, North East, Midlands etc, etc and invest in these areas instead of arse licking that square patch in London it will benefit the UK.
Unemployment, pay freezes, pension pots decimated, house prices crashing, a complete contraction of the entire economy - was the result of the City and its fellow economic cronies around the world.
What you posted is mere economic speculation fuelled on fear tactics by the budget U turn master George Osborne and his ilk.

Why should we trust what they are saying now?

 

[saintanton]

Besides, nobody's had a crack at the question of the democratic deficit yet. Any takers?

You could try reading back and see that we've covered this at length already.

 

[saintanton]

The UK excluding the City is still in recession. If it means that governments take interest in Wales, Scotland, North East, Midlands etc, etc and invest in these areas instead of arse licking that square patch in London it will benefit the UK.
Unemployment, pay freezes, pension pots decimated, house prices crashing, a complete contraction of the entire economy - was the result of the City and its fellow economic cronies around the world.
What you posted is mere economic speculation fuelled on fear tactics by the budget U turn master George Osborne and his ilk.

Why should we trust what they are saying now?

Why should we trust anyone- on either side?
Aren't we just picking the evidence to suit the mind we've already made up? In an earlier post of mine I said that I think all predictions are speculation and we should just be honest about our motives.
I think both sides* are voting with their hearts because our heads are filled with contradictory nonsense anyway.

*Of people discussing it on here, I mean. I think politicians like Boris (especially Boris) are cynically exploiting this for their own political ends.

 

[Kifflom!]

Oh, I see. So Boris's intentions mean that Commissioners are in fact elected and completely accountable then. Thanks for pointing that out.

Concentrate on what matters, not irrelevant fluff.

I never thought I'd ever quote Tony Benn but he got it spot in didn't he?

"The important thing about Democracy, is that you have to be able to defeat the people who govern you. My view about the European Union, has always been, not that I'm hostile to foreigners but I'm in favour of democracy. They are building an Empire there, and they want us to be a part of that Empire, but I don't want that."

 

[saintanton]

Oh, I see. So Boris's intentions mean that Commissioners are in fact elected and completely accountable then. Thanks for pointing that out.

Concentrate on what matters, not irrelevant fluff.

Perhaps you'd be better concentrating on gathering facts, rather than just repeating tired old hearsay.
The Commissioners are accountable to the European Parliament, who are elected by the people of Europe. The Parliament has the power to approve or reject legislation.
The democratic deficit idea was first used in the early days of the Union and probably had more legitimacy then. Over the years the problem has been addressed significantly and the criticism is much less valid now.
Our own parliamentary system is different, but not necessarily any more democratic. Ministers are given portfolios by the PM without any electoral process. Senior Civil Servants are career professionals and unelected for the most part.
The two systems may be structured differently, but neither is inherently more democratic.
Actually, if anything, the European Parliament is better than our own in that minority parties have a greater say in the decisions made than they do here because it utilises PR.

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

Why should we trust anyone- on either side?
Aren't we just picking the evidence to suit the mind we've already made up? In an earlier post of mine I said that I think all predictions are speculation and we should just be honest about our motives.
I think both sides* are voting with their hearts because our heads are filled with contradictory nonsense anyway.

*Of people discussing it on here, I mean. I think politicians like Boris (especially Boris) are cynically exploiting this for their own political ends.

Most definitely.

Agree on the speculation etc. That's why my vote has gone with no because of the TTIP issue.

What isn't helping the public is when that muppet Osbourne is saying that house prices will fall etc or that bellend Farage is saying that assaults on women etc will increase.
I've also been surprised with Corbyn. He's been anti Europe for all of his political life, but now as leader of the Labour Party, he's fallen into line.

The fear and smear campaign from both sides has been appalling.

 

[saintanton]

Most definitely.

Agree on the speculation etc. That's why my vote has gone with no because of the TTIP issue.

What isn't helping the public is when that muppet Osbourne is saying that house prices will fall etc or that bellend Farage is saying that assaults on women etc will increase.
I've also been surprised with Corbyn. He's been anti Europe for all of his political life, but now as leader of the Labour Party, he's fallen into line.

The fear and smear campaign from both sides has been appalling.

Don't you think that if we leave we'll just adopt an arrangement with the US that is similar to TTIP anyway?
My fear has always been that we will become increasingly closer to the US in all social and economic models. I've watched it happen for 50 years, and I can't see it getting any better.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Why can't a man jack of you no shooters think that you could actually elect a government to go change the eu?

Like..... hello... it's not in or out.

It's not all in or all out. We can be in but pushing to reform.

This is all like handing the keys of influence over and sitting on the sidelines then wondering why it all goes wrong for us.

I would predict no utopia for the uk in 20 years time but I could see certain eu states outside the big obvious names becoming far more economically active than us.

I could easily see jobs fly towards Poland for example.

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

Don't you think that if we leave we'll just adopt an arrangement with the US that is similar to TTIP anyway?
My fear has always been that we will become increasingly closer to the US in all social and economic models. I've watched it happen for 50 years, and I can't see it getting any better.

But that has to go through Parliament and the House of Lords - ironically, another crooked unelected chamber, but at least they hold the government to account on some policies. If we stay in Europe, and TTIP goes through, there's not a damned thing we can do about it. It's issues such as this that should have dominated the campaign, but in typical British fashion, we're left reading/debating over the crap. British politics has become Americanised if there's such a word.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Reality check.

Voting tory to get eu vote will put guys in power in next year's that will do ttip and worse.

Ttip is some conspiracy nuts excuse for everything

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

Why can't a man jack of you no shooters think that you could actually elect a government to go change the eu?

Like..... hello... it's not in or out.

It's not all in or all out. We can be in but pushing to reform.

This is all like handing the keys of influence over and sitting on the sidelines then wondering why it all goes wrong for us.

I would predict no utopia for the uk in 20 years time but I could see certain eu states outside the big obvious names becoming far more economically active than us.

I could easily see jobs fly towards Poland for example.

And i foresee the Euro collapsing within the next decade. Again, everything is ifs and buts.

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

Reality check.

Voting tory to get eu vote will put guys in power in next year's that will do ttip and worse.

Ttip is some conspiracy nuts excuse for everything

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

And i foresee the Euro collapsing within the next decade. Again, everything is ifs and buts.

The euro was dead the minute they let Italy and Greece in anyway.

If it's going to happen in or out who cares.... and don't tell me we have to bail anyone out cos that's also balls.

 

[ValleyGraduate12]

The euro was dead the minute they let Italy and Greece in anyway.

If it's going to happen in or out who cares.... and don't tell me we have to bail anyone out cos that's also balls.

And they were let in on the 'brilliant' thinking of these so called economic experts and institutions. The same experts that want us to remain IN.

 

[saintanton]

But that has to go through Parliament and the House of Lords - ironically, another crooked unelected chamber, but at least they hold the government to account on some policies. If we stay in Europe, and TTIP goes through, there's not a damned thing we can do about it. It's issues such as this that should have dominated the campaign, but in typical British fashion, we're left reading/debating over the crap. British politics has become Americanised if there's such a word.

Europe has a parliament -we're part of it. TTIP is being negotiated under some secrecy, why would it not happen the same way here?
We've been seeing privatisation of the NHS, increased incursions to our privacy and many of the other elements of the agreement here anyway. EU food and environmental standards are much better than US. Shouldn't we be working to maintain those advantages from within rather than the outside?
We're not a superpower any more, I don't think it will be as easy to stand on our own as some believe.

 

[swanseaandproud]

If you keep on listening to right wing politicians who i agree are only in it to gain power and are conning the public big time. How anyone can dismiss 90% of very influential people and 9 out of 10 economists that the whole of the UK will suffer huge losses and job losses that even Gove had to admit to and price rises, mortgage rises as stated by mortgage companies would definitely happen and all this with significant less money in your pocket. How can you let your self be conned by someone like Boris who says he cant tell you what coming out will actually means, His ploy is to put fear into peoples minds using immigration saying we can control our boarders.....Is he having a laugh or what.. If it was not for the EU boarder control we would have a lot more asylum seekers here. Germany take 6 times more asylum seekers than us and France take 4 times as many so we are doing pretty well in the UK and if we leave then all EU boarders don't. need to help us anymore and as we are an island then how are we going to stop the floodgates opening then. So Boris and his banker of putting fear into people with immigration is nonsense and flawed and the true scaremongering that is taking peoples minds off the real issues of livelihood and how we are going to cope without our partners in the EU. Now nobody is saying for one minute that the EU is perfect because its not but it looks after women's rights of equal pay,maternity leave and discrimination at the work place. and looks after Part time workers rights. Being with our partners keeps prices low and also looks after your holiday plans to keep prices as low as possible and makes sure you are entitled to be compensated if things go wrong....What this boils down to is who will be better at keeping your standard of living at a decent level and im afraid the right wing politicians Like Boris who is the cheekily chappy in politics is conning you for his own ends and using the public to achieve power not giving a toss about you afterwards saying its a price worth paying......He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth so what does he know about a price worth paying.... has he ever had to Rob Peter to pay Paul or go without food so your children can have a meal. Think carefully and try and see the big picture rather than going gun ho putting your cross on someone you later regret because once its done there will be no turning back...

 

[DarloGeordie]

As Duncan Bannatyne says "I'm owt". I'm not listening to the pro for and pro against as its pointless, I'm trusting my gut feeling and I'm out of here.
I still think the Vote ins will win but hey ho.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Think carefully and try and see the big picture rather than going gun ho putting your cross on someone you later regret because once its done there will be no turning back...

Except since polls started showing Brexit in front talk has begun about how Cameron and the majority of The house which is Remain could legally undermine and stall an actual exit for a considerable amount of time. I see stories have started to pop up about it in the Guardian, BBC and Telegraph.

Remember a referendum isn't legally binding it's advisory as Parliament is sovereign.

Cameron may have threatened to push the button the day after the result but then hey, he also said he'd negotiate lol...he's as trustworthy as a hungry snake!

Exit is going to be extremely complicated....there may be an argument, especially if the result is very close to go back to the EU under the pretence of talks on post exit trade agreements and come back with a proposal that in all but name keeps us in the single market...challenging Out campaigners to put forward an alternative which they won't be able to do without the mechanisms of government and no general election in the near future...

These are politicians we are talking about...and Cameron won't care as an out vote carried through would be the end of him anyway...what would he have to lose?

 

[Ivan Dobsky]

The leave camp does not now bother to hide their lies.

__________________________

Today, in response to questions about this from journalist, the IFS has put a short statement on its website saying Gove was misrepresenting its analysis. It says:
Michael Gove claimed on Friday that the IFS had said that leaving the EU would free up £8bn to spend on the NHS. We have not said that. We have looked carefully at the likely public finance implications. We conclude that the net UK contribution to the EU over the next few years is indeed likely to be about £8bn a year, £8bn which would become available for other things were we to leave. However we also point out that even a small negative effect of just 0.6% on national income from leaving the EU would damage the public finances by more than that £8bn. There is virtual unanimity among economic forecasters that the negative economic effect of leaving the EU would be greater than that. That is why we conclude that leaving the EU would not, as Michael Gove claims we said, leave more money to spend on the NHS. Rather it would leave us spending less on public services, or taxing more, or borrowing more.

____________________________________

And everything else being repeated by the right wing press are also blatant speculation and untruths.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-live-cameron-harman-leave-campaign-con-trick

All true, but unfortunately 'We'll lose £350m a week and then some' doesn't seem to fit on the battlebus like the now proven lie they'e had about £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS. I said it took less than a month for them to lose £250m of that figure' -five-sevenths of their budget - now they've lost the lot. Two more weeks and the plan will be to extract the good fillings from immigrants' teeth when they enter the Farage camps.

 

[DirtyFrank]

Two more weeks and the plan will be to extract the good fillings from immigrants' teeth when they enter the Farage camps.

Isn't that Norway idea lol? Maybe that's what they mean by following the Norway model!