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Non Bristolian onlooker here.

I think the broader issue of this incident is being missed by some. Whether that Colston chap was a benefactor or an embarrassment to the city of Bristol is irrelevant. It certainly seems to be an immotive subject, but the public disorder culminating in the event and carried out under the banner of social justice is no excuse.
 
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Angelicnumber16 said:
In terms of the act of criminal damage, yes, absolutely, 100%
And I'm not exactly crying <laugh>
I just hope the morons who were responsible for the damage whilst completely ignoring social distancing rules get what they deserve.
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I did mean crying in a general sense of the uproar, not you personally <laugh>
 
BCFCRob said:
People didn't care so much when they were defending Dominic Cummings though did they? Or when they were going to the beach? But now it's BLM everyone is suddenly up in arms about it.

Also it's pretty clear what I was describing as brilliant, and it isn't what you said.
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Whilst their cause is laudable, criminal behaviour is never the answer and is more likely to turn people away rather than persuade them of the merits of your cause. Bristol was built off of the backs of slaves, both directly & indirectly, whilst most would find it abhorrent these days back then it was the norm. I appreciate I’m not black so not affected as much, however I think it’s better we use our energy on trying to resolve current injustices.
 
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AshtonRed said:
Whilst their cause is laudable, criminal behaviour is never the answer and is more likely to turn people away rather than persuade them of the merits of your cause. Bristol was built off of the backs of slaves, both directly & indirectly, whilst most would find it abhorrent these days back then it was the norm. I appreciate I’m not black so not affected as much, however I think it’s better we use our energy on trying to resolve current injustices.
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But that's the thing, it won't happen will it? How many people in this thread will go ahead and join a BLM march in the future (post-covid)? People in general will use more of their energy complaining about a statue coming down than about injustice today. That is the problem right there, and that's why things like tearing down a statue, while illegal, will help raise awareness.
 
BCFCRob said:
But that's the thing, it won't happen will it? How many people in this thread will go ahead and join a BLM march in the future (post-covid)? People in general will use more of their energy complaining about a statue coming down than about injustice today. That is the problem right there, and that's why things like tearing down a statue, while illegal, will help raise awareness.
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Personally I’m more concerned at any kind of demonstration in the present climate regardless of the merits of the case, and I am in agreement with this particular issue. Demonstrating in numbers at the moment is very dangerous and may actually cost lives.
 
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BCFCRob said:
But that's the thing, it won't happen will it? How many people in this thread will go ahead and join a BLM march in the future (post-covid)? People in general will use more of their energy complaining about a statue coming down than about injustice today. That is the problem right there, and that's why things like tearing down a statue, while illegal, will help raise awareness.
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No probs Rob. I admire your fervour, but sometimes your take on what it needs to raise "awareness" is frankly bonkers.

We all know racial abuse and discrimination exists and the effect it has on the lives black people and other ethnic minority groups. Colour, religion, financial greed and political doctrine all contribute toward angst in society generally to the extent that pulling a statue down is small potatoes in the "awareness" stakes. It's just criminal mob rule being demonstrated like the historical lynching parties of the past - it happened but it doesn't make it right.

We could all go out as vigilantes and bump off a *****phile to raise awareness about child abuse but would that make people any more aware of the problem?

Symbolic as it might be, I doubt destroying Edward Colston's statue is going to change the world or the people of Bristol for that matter, other than to make some local radical activists feel better.
 
You can't compare the likes of Hitler and Jimmy Saville to Colston as they are not the same thing. Hitler was a war criminal in his life time and would have been tried for this if caught, Saville was a *****phile and rapist in his lifetime and would have been tried for this if he was caught. What Colston was doing is morally reprehensible today but during his lifetime was a legitimate form of business.
 
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BCFCRob said:
But that's the thing, it won't happen will it? How many people in this thread will go ahead and join a BLM march in the future (post-covid)? People in general will use more of their energy complaining about a statue coming down than about injustice today. That is the problem right there, and that's why things like tearing down a statue, while illegal, will help raise awareness.
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Why would I join a BLM march? The cause that thinks it is better than the rest of society. All lives matter.
 
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Red Alert said:
Why would I join a BLM march? The cause that thinks it is better than the rest of society. All lives matter.
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You agree that all lives matter, but refuse to do anything to help those who are oppressed?

You don’t really believe all lives matter then do you. You’re probably just happy with the status quo.
 
Oldsparkey said:
No probs Rob. I admire your fervour, but sometimes your take on what it needs to raise "awareness" is frankly bonkers.

We all know racial abuse and discrimination exists and the effect it has on the lives black people and other ethnic minority groups. Colour, religion, financial greed and political doctrine all contribute toward angst in society generally to the extent that pulling a statue down is small potatoes in the "awareness" stakes. It's just criminal mob rule being demonstrated like the historical lynching parties of the past - it happened but it doesn't make it right.

We could all go out as vigilantes and bump off a *****phile to raise awareness about child abuse but would that make people any more aware of the problem?

Symbolic as it might be, I doubt destroying Edward Colston's statue is going to change the world or the people of Bristol for that matter, other than to make some local radical activists feel better.
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How do you suggest doing it instead then? Seeing as everything up to now has failed to work sufficiently, and that march this weekend harmed nobody (covid-exempt of course).
 
BCFCRob said:
You agree that all lives matter, but refuse to do anything to help those who are oppressed?

You don’t really believe all lives matter then do you. You’re probably just happy with the status quo.
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How is breaking lockdown and breaking down statues behaving like a left wing Taliban helping the oppressed??

BCFCRob said:
How do you suggest doing it instead then? Seeing as everything up to now has failed to work sufficiently, and that march this weekend harmed nobody (covid-exempt of course).
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Everything has failed??? Doing what?? Bristol has black people and those from ethnic backgrounds elected to Mayor and MP's.
 
Red Alert said:
How is breaking lockdown and breaking down statues behaving like a left wing Taliban helping the oppressed??

Everything has failed??? Doing what?? Bristol has black people and those from ethnic backgrounds elected to Mayor and MPs.
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A left wing taliban?! <laugh><laugh><laugh> Jesus Christ that’s brilliant. Last time I checked they weren’t blowing up civilians mate.

So to your second point, you believe racism doesn’t exist then?
 
BCFCRob said:
You agree that all lives matter, but refuse to do anything to help those who are oppressed?

You don’t really believe all lives matter then do you. You’re probably just happy with the status quo.
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Rob, I think it's important to take a step back and remember that the trigger for this happened in the US. That doesn't make it right, but it is a bit strange to me that we have riots on our streets and attacks on our war memorials because of the actions of a foreign police force. Are they angry with Colston? He's been dead for 300'years and the vile trade he profited from also died longer ago than anyone living would be able to remember. I shed no tears for him or his statue, but I am uncomfortable with large groups of people attacking monuments, property or businesses - or the police.
But then, I probably come from the most hated ethnicity of all; I'm white (therefore racist), male (therefore sexist), straight (therefore homophobic), English (therefore guilty of oppressing Scots, Welsh and Irish) and above all British, therefore a vile imperialist colonial apologist.
In fact I harbour none of the above sentiments but sometimes feel like I'm being tarnished by them.
I'm running out of guilt.
Our country, like most in the world, has done things - terrible things by today's standards - which have no place in the world today. It's right and proper that we expose prejudice and injustice wherever it is found. However, the behaviour of some of these 'protesters' devalue the message and tarnish the good intentions of the peaceful majority who wish to take a peaceful but strong stand against oppression everywhere.
 
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That’s a really good post bcfcredandwhite and I think loads of people are feeling victimised for being who they are, I.e. white, hetero British. But no one is actually criticising you for it, no sane person is calling all white people racist or anything like that. It’s just the few idiots who then get printed everywhere for having such a ludicrous opinion. Tearing down a statue isn’t saying you’re not allowed to be white British, it’s just saying let’s not celebrate what bad things a past Brit did.
 
BCFCRob said:
You agree that all lives matter, but refuse to do anything to help those who are oppressed?

You don’t really believe all lives matter then do you. You’re probably just happy with the status quo.
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To be fair there are hundreds of way to help, roaming the streets, screaming and chanting isn’t the only way
 
BCFCRob said:
The biggest question is why his statue had not been pulled down earlier (by 'usual' means of course). The slave trade was abolished nearly a century before the statue even went up.
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what people need to understand is the slave trade was only a part of his "small and short part of his empire" it is OK trying to take/hide or wish it never happened …. lets go back to say 1679 when he was a very successful bona fide merchant his trading at the time had helped to put Bristol, he was probably one of the main purveyors of the growth of the port on the map as a major trading port trading cloth, oil [ olive ?], wine, sherry and fruit with Spain, Portugal, Italy and Africa [ gold silver ivory ]
He joined the Royal African company in 1680 [ a company that held the monopoly of trading along the west Africa coast since 1660 or thereabouts] ...the trade was multi functional of which unfortunately slaves were part of it …. He had amassed quite a fortune before then [1680 ]

the consensus is slavery [ involved 12 years ] was only a small part of his wealth as he had many other lucrative strings to his bow.... the almshouses were built the year [ or after ] he left the Royal Africa Compnay. Colstons school founded over 20 years after the slave trading part of his empire ceased … he left endowment legacies in a number of institutions [ a dozen?] in Bristol. [ still running today! ]

COLSTON is what you make of him …..David Hughson writing in 1808 described Colston as "the great benefactor of the city of Bristol, who, in his lifetime, expended more than 70,000L. [£] in charitable institutions".

HISTORY leaves its mark, it is what happened and no one can erase it … we learn by having the reminder that " this or that ??? memorial ??? represents good or bad ". Destroying or defacing" ADDS only another page of history and highlights that the perpetrator of such an act is akin to the reason the memorial may be there in the first place.
 
BCFCRob said:
. That is the problem right there, and that's why things like tearing down a statue, while illegal, will help raise awareness.
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OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS protests have degenerated into mass brawls or looting and criminal damage to innocent property or criminal acts … the modern generations way of saying we want to protest [ but a lot don't care a s***, we can loot cause damage make a statement that affects the innocent and people will take notice ] well the bad the news is it has the opposite affect, in the first of the extinction rally's the majority of the population listened, some even gave thought to something they took for granted … then they got stupid and aggressive...support waned.
In the first few nights of GF awareness the whole world was shocked and brought to attention … then it got aggressive and looting and firebombing started … the good was quickly buried and support lost.
Tearing down a statue will help raise awareness ….think again, it is a condemnation of those that are trying to make a point, it is actually full circle if you give it thought …..
 
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