Off Topic UK / EU Future

[oldfrenchhorn]

So after the governments humiliation last night, where does that leave us? I would suggest still in the same place as we were before the vote. The PM judging by comments today from within seems to have put it to one side as just a few more irritating details to be sorted out. "I will stretch out across the House to find a solution" she said, but now it seems she is being selective in that approach. Her whole problem is that all the red lines that she created have now come back to haunt her. If you think about it they were all about what she didn't want, not positive wishes, so now the EU are shaking their heads and asking what is it she does actually want. The deal that she has spent two years on has united parliament, against it. I will not even dwell on the vote today as I see it as just a further waste of time, something that the country no longer has. This is all about the PM now saving face, not what is right for the country. We can argue all day about what that should be, but I cannot see for the life of me that carrying on, believing that tinkering around the edges will produce any outcome that will mitigate the great harm being done to the fabric of the country. A much more radical approach has to be adopted to get out of the current gridlock.

 

[kchorn]

You say 'what does Labour want' - the answer is that it wants open debate, where all possibilities are open to discussion, is that so very hard to fathom ?

It isn't hard to fathom as Corbyn makes it clear his party has no policy to offer. But yesterday he said that it was the job of the oppostion to put forward alternative policies. I can see why May didn't call Corbyn to just here criticism. She can call you or me for that

Can anyone really explain to me why a second referendum would be undemocratic ? Other than by repeating the same old mantra's. Are the people not allowed to change their minds under democracy ? Are those countries which have had second referendums eg. Denmark, Ireland, Norway etc. any less democratic as a result ?

I'm baffled by what the rules should be. Clearly you cannot have refs every 5 mins but equally I feel a ref should need more than 52% to change the world.

Maybe the ref should have read: "I do not / do wish the government to appoint an independent commission to fully explore leaving the EU and present full findings of how this can be achieved to the people.

 

[kchorn]

Reconciliation ? Has any Brexiteer ever stopped to think about the effects of their actions on ex pats such as us ? Have they ever expressed any understanding, or remorse, or apologies to us ? The whole thing happened over our heads, and without our being asked for our opinions - yet it changed our status, forcibly. So why should I waste time trying to understand them and their motives ?

So all governments should only take action if every single member of the population will feel no negative impact? How would that work exactly?

To be honest Cologne I'm in Spain and here I'm sick to death with whinging expats (I know here most are just retired people milking the UK economy and paying locals here rates close to slave levels). Yup I recognise a typical expat in Germany is not like a typical expat here ..

 

[colognehornet]

So all governments should only take action if every single member of the population will feel no negative impact? How would that work exactly?

To be honest Cologne I'm in Spain and here I'm sick to death with whinging expats (I know here most are just retired people milking the UK economy and paying locals here rates close to slave levels). Yup I recognise a typical expat in Germany is not like a typical expat here ..

I think that ex pats in Germany are different to those in Spain KC. That may be a large generalisation, which there will be exceptions to but the British ex pats here are all of working age (nobody in their right mind retires to Germany) - there are not the large clusters of ex pats here, all living in close proximity to each other and boring each other to tears. In all we are no more than 100,000, nearly all working and often isolated from each other (other than in the odd Irish pub in Hamburg), mostly bilingual and mostly highly integrated because of work. Nobody can work legally here without paying into the German health insurances and so things like the NHS are history for us

 

[kchorn]

Nobody can work legally here without paying into the German health insurances and so things like the NHS are history for us

That is the same here.

I appreciate changes impact people but equally I think locals need protection. If you are in a job in Germany that no German can/wants to do I'm sure you'll have no trouble.

But are Germany doing nothing to help current expats? Here the agreements between the UK and Spain are just waiting for final signature. Indeed the current health arrangents have nothing to do with the EU.

ps: Don't get me started on expats that refuse to learn the language

 

[colognehornet]

That is the same here.

I appreciate changes impact people but equally I think locals need protection. If you are in a job in Germany that no German can/wants to do I'm sure you'll have no trouble.

But are Germany doing nothing to help current expats? Here the agreements between the UK and Spain are just waiting for final signature. Indeed the current health arrangents have nothing to do with the EU.

ps: Don't get me started on expats that refuse to learn the language

With regard to your first sentence nationality plays no role in German recruitment. If you have legal residence, and are not under refugee status, then you can do any job in Germany apart from some higher civil service jobs, police, army, or chancellor - without any preference being given to German nationals - if I were from Morocco (but had legal residence, and not refugee status) then this would apply. Germany has said that all ex pats who are legally resident at the time of a hard Brexit would be allowed to stay, without loss of rights. Subject to German citizens being given the same conditions in the UK. I am not sure of voting rights would be maintained - and some other things would be negatively effected such as the payment of British pensions according to a German points system. Also the recognition of qualifications could be negatively effected. Germany allows dual nationality only within the EU - so, in the event of a hard Brexit then ex pats applying later would have to give up British nationality - in the event of a deal, then there would be 2 years extension on this.

However - the main concern is the reciprocal treatment of EU citizens in the UK. The way they are treated will have consequences for ex pats here, and I do not trust the overall atmosphere in the UK. Fortunately I took German nationality just over 3 years ago - around the time of the Scottish referendum, because I had an idea then that we were at the beginning of a chain of events which could lead to this conclusion. I just felt that the rise in English nationalism which accompanied Scotland daring to suggest such a step would lead to further negative consequences. The sad truth is that those Brexiteers who make such a thing about the Union Jack could well be the cause of the breakup of that flag. Anybody who spouts on about self determination, and sovereignty must realize that the same rule applies to Scotland.

 

[superhorns]

The leader of the House has just confirmed the government will not be seeking an extension to article 50. If they stick to that position the odds on a no deal exit will only increase.

Merkel has ruled out any renegotiations of Britain's withdrawal agreement. She also said extending article 50 is 'fiction'. There does not seem any option other than leaving without a deal.

 

[colognehornet]

Merkel has ruled out any renegotiations of Britain's withdrawal agreement. She also said extending article 50 is 'fiction'. There does not seem any option other than leaving without a deal.

Her exact words were ''Wir haben noch Zeit zu verhandeln''. I am presuming that you cannot translate that, and so, are relying on your lying comics - it means ''We still have time to negotiate'' !!! It has also come from leading sources in the German government that they are open to an extension after March 29th if circumstances require it, or there has been a change in circumstances such as a change in government or the prospect of a second referendum. Check your information before you post and do not believe the rubbish you read in your comics - or at least check it with other sources first.

 

[Deleted.......]

Her exact words were ''Wir haben noch Zeit zu verhandeln''. I am presuming that you cannot translate that, and so, are relying on your lying comics - it means ''We still have time to negotiate'' !!! It has also come from leading sources in the German government that they are open to an extension after March 29th if circumstances require it, or there has been a change in circumstances such as a change in government or the prospect of a second referendum. Check your information before you post and do not believe the rubbish you read in your comics - or at least check it with other sources first.

<Awaits the forensic dismantling of an obviously disreputable article in the German media as it will be less reliable than the UK media.....>

 

[superhorns]

Her exact words were ''Wir haben noch Zeit zu verhandeln''. I am presuming that you cannot translate that, and so, are relying on your lying comics - it means ''We still have time to negotiate'' !!! It has also come from leading sources in the German government that they are open to an extension after March 29th if circumstances require it, or there has been a change in circumstances such as a change in government or the prospect of a second referendum. Check your information before you post and do not believe the rubbish you read in your comics - or at least check it with other sources first.

Last week you foolishly rubbished the latest YouGov poll. Your Brexit reversal dreams are evaporating before your eyes.

 

[kchorn]

With regard to your first sentence nationality plays no role in German recruitment. If you have legal residence, and are not under refugee status, then you can do any job in Germany apart from some higher civil service jobs, police, army, or chancellor - without any preference being given to German nationals - if I were from Morocco (but had legal residence, and not refugee status) then this would apply. Germany has said that all ex pats who are legally resident at the time of a hard Brexit would be allowed to stay, without loss of rights. Subject to German citizens being given the same conditions in the UK. I am not sure of voting rights would be maintained - and some other things would be negatively effected such as the payment of British pensions according to a German points system. Also the recognition of qualifications could be negatively effected.

So why your previous post "Reconciliation ? Has any Brexiteer ever stopped to think about the effects of their actions on ex pats such as us ? Have they ever expressed any understanding, or remorse, or apologies to us ? The whole thing happened over our heads, and without our being asked for our opinions - yet it changed our status, forcibly. So why should I waste time trying to understand them and their motives ?"

It does seen Cologne although you want it both ways. `[And I might ask when you last apologised to, for example to Cornish and Peterhead fisherman who lost their jobs and their boats? ].

At the end of the day we live in a world of mixed nationalities, mixed religions, and mixed cultures. If in the future we all live as world citizens so be it, but for now that is not the case. .

There will always be previleged persons like you and me who live in comfort and can contribute to the decision making process. But we share this world with many to whom such a luxury is a dream. The EU to many is a step backwards, and they are not thinking of economy. So a little pain for me and you may not seem too important

 

[kchorn]

Stopping EU immigration in its current state is the only 'benefit' .

Thank you Toby. So point proven. As I said it wasn't aimed just at you, but making sweeping generalisations, that are clearly false, just bolsters the opposition.

The truth is that you believe, like many, that the benefits outweigh the negatives under most likely circumstances. Why is it so difficult to be honest?

 

[colognehornet]

So why your previous post "Reconciliation ? Has any Brexiteer ever stopped to think about the effects of their actions on ex pats such as us ? Have they ever expressed any understanding, or remorse, or apologies to us ? The whole thing happened over our heads, and without our being asked for our opinions - yet it changed our status, forcibly. So why should I waste time trying to understand them and their motives ?"

It does seen Cologne although you want it both ways. `[And I might ask when you last apologised to, for example to Cornish and Peterhead fisherman who lost their jobs and their boats? ].

At the end of the day we live in a world of mixed nationalities, mixed religions, and mixed cultures. If in the future we all live as world citizens so be it, but for now that is not the case. .

There will always be previleged persons like you and me who live in comfort and can contribute to the decision making process. But we share this world with many to whom such a luxury is a dream. The EU to many is a step backwards, and they are not thinking of economy. So a little pain for me and you may not seem too important

My remark about Brexiters stands KC. At the time of calling for a hard Brexit they did not stop to think that the status of ex pats could have been reduced to the ecquivalent of being from Mali as a result - and that is 1.3 million people. Also I do not live in comfort nor can I contribute to the decision making process in the UK. The fact that I have a German passport has to do with the fact that I have nearly 30 years residence behind me - even then it was hard to get, and expensive. Others have not been so fortunate and are reliant upon the generosity of the countries where they are living. You speak about fishermen in Cornwall - have you forgotten that Cornwall practically lives from EU funding ? In fact the whole UK was the sick man of Europe before it joined the EU.

 

[Toby]

Thank you Toby. So point proven. As I said it wasn't aimed just at you, but making sweeping generalisations, that are clearly false, just bolsters the opposition.

The truth is that you believe, like many, that the benefits outweigh the negatives under most likely circumstances. Why is it so difficult to be honest?

I've been saying that all along. Where have I ever claimed the EU is perfect? The only certainty is that the country will be worse off for a period of time after Brexit, most forecasts vary between 10 years and several decades. Even that utter **** JRM says it will take up to 50 years for any benefits to become apparent.

 

[Toby]

Thank you Toby. So point proven. As I said it wasn't aimed just at you, but making sweeping generalisations, that are clearly false, just bolsters the opposition.

The truth is that you believe, like many, that the benefits outweigh the negatives under most likely circumstances. Why is it so difficult to be honest?

By the way I don't consider stopping EU migration as a benefit, it clearly isn't, the Government had all the powers necessary to put controls in place and did nothing, Brexit is like cutting your finger off if you have long nails.

 

[kchorn]

My remark about Brexiters stands KC. At the time of calling for a hard Brexit they did not stop to think that the status of ex pats could have been reduced to the ecquivalent of being from Mali as a result

Cologne you should be ashamed of yourself. You can only dream of being an immigrant from Mali. If anything convinces me being out of the EU is the way to go, it is what you've said. The self-righteous and selfish position makes me feel sick.

If after 30 years in Germany they treat you in such a way maybe you should think about your EU stance.

And as for the sh1t that Cornwall is a poor region bear in mind that is after many years of EU membership.

OK I'm done.

 

[Deleted.......]

So why your previous post "Reconciliation ? Has any Brexiteer ever stopped to think about the effects of their actions on ex pats such as us ? Have they ever expressed any understanding, or remorse, or apologies to us ? The whole thing happened over our heads, and without our being asked for our opinions - yet it changed our status, forcibly. So why should I waste time trying to understand them and their motives ?"

It does seen Cologne although you want it both ways. `[And I might ask when you last apologised to, for example to Cornish and Peterhead fisherman who lost their jobs and their boats? ].

At the end of the day we live in a world of mixed nationalities, mixed religions, and mixed cultures. If in the future we all live as world citizens so be it, but for now that is not the case. .

There will always be previleged persons like you and me who live in comfort and can contribute to the decision making process. But we share this world with many to whom such a luxury is a dream. The EU to many is a step backwards, and they are not thinking of economy. So a little pain for me and you may not seem too important

What on earth are you talking about? Nobody's lost their boat.

 

[colognehornet]

Cologne you should be ashamed of yourself. You can only dream of being an immigrant from Mali. If anything convinces me being out of the EU is the way to go, it is what you've said. The self-righteous and selfish position makes me feel sick.

If after 30 years in Germany they treat you in such a way maybe you should think about your EU stance.

And as for the sh1t that Cornwall is a poor region bear in mind that is after many years of EU membership.

OK I'm done.

Quite honestly I don't know what you're talking about KC. Ex pats were not considered as an important element by the Brexiteers - maybe just as collateral damage. The result of their actions could have been (and still can be) that our status within the EU. was reduced to that of a third country (ie. like Mali). In short, we were having citizenship rights forcibly taken away without being asked. As far as I know not one Brexiter has actually admitted that it may constitute a democratic deficit that we were not asked, yet were very much affected by the result. Do you deny that the UK was the sick man of Europe before joining, and that most of it's growth since has been as a result of EU membership ? Do you deny that Cornwall gets so much in terms of EU funding ? Or maybe you want to maintain that the poverty of the region is due to the EU ? Throughout my lifetime I have seen one scapegoat after the other used in England - now the EU is at fault for everything which goes wrong. In the past it was the Unions, the Pakistanis, the Lefties, Scotland, dole scroungers, now it's the EU (always someone else). The only good thing about Brexit is that it might leave the English without any possible scapegoats left.

 

[superhorns]

Quite honestly I don't know what you're talking about KC. Ex pats were not considered as an important element by the Brexiteers - maybe just as collateral damage. The result of their actions could have been (and still can be) that our status within the EU. was reduced to that of a third country (ie. like Mali). In short, we were having citizenship rights forcibly taken away without being asked. As far as I know not one Brexiter has actually admitted that it may constitute a democratic deficit that we were not asked, yet were very much affected by the result. Do you deny that the UK was the sick man of Europe before joining, and that most of it's growth since has been as a result of EU membership ? Do you deny that Cornwall gets so much in terms of EU funding ? Or maybe you want to maintain that the poverty of the region is due to the EU ? Throughout my lifetime I have seen one scapegoat after the other used in England - now the EU is at fault for everything which goes wrong. In the past it was the Unions, the Pakistanis, the Lefties, Scotland, dole scroungers, now it's the EU (always someone else). The only good thing about Brexit is that it might leave the English without any possible scapegoats left.

I was under the impression those listed above will remain in the UK unless Merkel has announced a new open door policy ?

 

[wear_yellow]

Cologne you should be ashamed of yourself. You can only dream of being an immigrant from Mali. If anything convinces me being out of the EU is the way to go, it is what you've said. The self-righteous and selfish position makes me feel sick.

If after 30 years in Germany they treat you in such a way maybe you should think about your EU stance.

And as for the sh1t that Cornwall is a poor region bear in mind that is after many years of EU membership.

OK I'm done.

Dont waste your time, the Clique will all start on you - it's how it works on here.