Off Topic UK / EU Future

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You do not know that, but let it be. I asked you about the government refusal to publish the advice it had been given, thereby removing some of your sovereignty. Are you happy to allow them to continue in this way? It is after all on the road to taking away your ability to elect someone who will represent the best interests of you and the country.

There has been plenty of research done why people voted voted as they did on Brexit, I will find it if you do not accept my assertion. I am not happy the way the remain dominated UK negotiators have performed which is why the deal should be voted down.
 
There has been plenty of research done why people voted voted as they did on Brexit, I will find it if you do not accept my assertion. I am not happy the way the remain dominated UK negotiators have performed which is why the deal should be voted down.

You still haven't addressed the actual question.
 
This is a debatable point W_Y. The extent to which citizenship of the EU. actually applies as a 'direct' relationship to the EU. in it's own right - if it can be revoked by a third party then it is not really 'citizenship' in the accepted sense. The legal position is not entirely clear, and the nature of 'EU. Citizenship is being discussed by the European Courts at the present time. If you like then EU citizenship exists as a right which stems from being a citizen of an EU. country - whatever way you care to express it, then rights are being cut off forcibly and against our will by our own countrymen. There is currently a rush to gain citizenship of EU. countries by ex pats - they are becoming Germans, French, Spanish, Irish, there are even a few becoming Rumanian. All of this in numbers never seen before. Fortunately I did all this a few years ago and now have dual nationality, and so, whatever comes of Brexit, I remain a citizen of the EU. Actually I would most like to be stateless, without any citizenship, but the World does not allow this category.
But legally there is no such thing as a "European Citizen" when it applies to Passports. For instance a holder of a German passport would have visa free access to some countries that a holder of a French or Italian passport might not, so having EU stamped on the front is totally meaningless and is there as the start of a more ambitious plan for further "integration" and the forming of a European Empire.
 
Yes. Ignoring the rights or wrongs of the decision, I can't imagine how the UK will get beyond the divisions that have been created. Despite the hopes of SH I can't see how different groups will not continue to blame other groups. That won't just be an argument between those who want to stay and those who want to leave. Already there are divisions over ther terms of departure. There are arguments about betrayal in different parts of the U.K.

The U.K. hasn't been so divided since the civil war, which was a consequence of breaking away from Rome. It took over a hundred and forty years between the Reformation and the appointment of William of Orange before things began to settle down. Even then fighting continued sporadically. The consequences of Henry VIII's decision could not have been imagined in 1534. It worked out okay by the end of the seventeenth century but the pain was enormous. Today, unless someone can heal the body politic of the U.K. very soon, I fear the consequences of the decision to leave the EU will be equally far reaching.
I would agree about the divisions NZ. though I struggle to find a present day version of someone of the stature of Oliver Cromwell. The divisions predate Brexit, having their origins in the savage de industrialization of the UK. by the wicked witch during the 80s. As long as the Scottish Unions were engaged in the same fight as their English brothers then that was the glue which kept the union together, but that has all changed. Interesting to make the comparison to the break from Rome, because there is still a correlation between religious affiliation and voting behaviour in the UK, reflected in both party choice and the Brexit vote. Dispense with those identifying themselves as Anglican and the remain vote would have won. The highest 'Brexit' vote was from those identifying themselves as Anglican or Jewish and the highest `Remain' votes being from those identifying themselves as Catholic, Presbyterian, Islamic, non Christian, or Christian sects such as Quaker. Methodists and Baptists were equally divided.
 
But legally there is no such thing as a "European Citizen" when it applies to Passports. For instance a holder of a German passport would have visa free access to some countries that a holder of a French or Italian passport might not, so having EU stamped on the front is totally meaningless and is there as the start of a more ambitious plan for further "integration" and the forming of a European Empire.
What you do not take into account is that the German passport has a certain value in the World because it is a EU. passport, and confers EU citizenship in addition to that of Germany. If i have visa free travel, then the same would operate in reverse - meaning, simultaneously, access to all the Schengen area. So you are wrong on this - a German and an Italian passport have the same weight, because of being both in the EU. After Brexit the British will not be able to differentiate between EU. passports and say that eg. Rumanians need Visas but Germans don't need them.
 
My daughter simply owns a holiday home in Spain, she lives in the UK. I have no problem at all with immigrants, just the mass uncontrolled surge that led to Brexit.
A problem of the Home Office making, particularly the Home secretary then. Not an EU problem, but a failure to instigate the rules available to the UK. All relatively easily fixed.
Now we seem intent on amputating both legs and an arm for what amounts to an ingrown toenail.
 
A problem of the Home Office making, particularly the Home secretary then. Not an EU problem, but a failure to instigate the rules available to the UK. All relatively easily fixed.
Now we seem intent on amputating both legs and an arm for what amounts to an ingrown toenail.

I've explained that to him repeatedly, he just ignores it and waffles on about France.
 
A problem of the Home Office making, particularly the Home secretary then. Not an EU problem, but a failure to instigate the rules available to the UK. All relatively easily fixed.
Now we seem intent on amputating both legs and an arm for what amounts to an ingrown toenail.

Embrace the UK's democratic decision and look forward to leaving the EU. Freedom day will soon be upon us.
 
For those who seek to smear remainers.... make sense of MTs comments on Europe below:

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This whole thing is not about party politics.....

MT would never have capitulated under the EU's bullying tactics, she would have actually meant 'no deal is better than a bad deal'. She would also have been horrified by the preferred direction of some EU leaders towards a federal Europe.
 
The UK needs to leave the EU quickly, Trump is itching to whack high tariffs on cars being imported from the EU.
 
For those who seek to smear remainers.... make sense of MTs comments on Europe below:

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This whole thing is not about party politics.....
I never thought I would agree with the old battle axe on anything, but on this (only) she was right. What nation in it's right mind would voluntarily give up having any influence amongst their immediate neighbours ?
 
Bank of England issuing compelling stats this evening.. Which of course these 'expert' MPs are given air space to refute.
There is not one major financial institution which is seeing a good economic future ahead...

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Project fear 2. ........or is it 3,4?
 
Project fear 2. ........or is it 3,4?
You just have to love those who spend their time with their head in a pile of sand. I suppose that all the independent reports, the government one and now the BOE one have been closely coordinated to say the same thing.
 
You just have to love those who spend their time with their head in a pile of sand. I suppose that all the independent reports, the government one and now the BOE one have been closely coordinated to say the same thing.

Both were completely wrong on project fear 1, you obviously cannot recognise propaganda at all. They certainly fooled a lot of the people a lot of the time.
 
You just have to love those who spend their time with their head in a pile of sand. I suppose that all the independent reports, the government one and now the BOE one have been closely coordinated to say the same thing.

Funnily enough I spent the afternoon shovelling 5 tons of gravel around my site to keep the mud under control. Most of the bank managers I dealt with were a useless bunch, they would have been quite hopeless at running a business. Carney has got nearly as many predictions wrong as you Frenchie. :emoticon-0105-wink:
 
Funnily enough I spent the afternoon shovelling 5 tons of gravel around my site to keep the mud under control. Most of the bank managers I dealt with were a useless bunch, they would have been quite hopeless at running a business. Carney has got nearly as many predictions wrong as you Frenchie. :emoticon-0105-wink:

And still no answer. I am quite disappointed. I can only assume that you don't wish to answer, although I don't know why.
 
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