Off Topic UK / EU Future

The more I read this the more I am glad that i am out of it. On a personal level my only sadness is that I can't pass on an EU passport to my children.

 

This is the most serious problem of all NZ. Millions of people are having their EU. passports forcibly taken away against their will. Their civil rights are being subject to restrictions which have been forced on them by their fellow countrymen. However, nothing is permanent and London remains only 2 hours train journey from Brussels - countries like Belgium and France will always be more important to us than our relationship to the USA. The most tragic thing in all of this is that it has been a distraction from far more important issues such as global warming - which needs international cooperation, as much as individual action. Two and a half years of squabbling, backbiting and getting nowhere when people should be coming together looking for global solutions.

 

Sad this has divided so many as apparent on these boards too......

What are the ingredients for a peaceful planet and global unity etc... Not the sort of family rending division perpetrated by this whole debacle

 

All of this angst could have been avoided if the UK had not voted to join the Common Market, nothing but trouble mixing with these Johnny foreigners.

 

There is no such thing as a EU passport, just by adding the words on the front of a sovereign countries passports means absolutely nothing. It's the content of a Passport that is all important and the words inside have absolutely nothing to do with the EU - they are from the government of the country that issued the passport. If I fly to Dublin, I have to show my passport at Immigration - If I take the EuroStar I have to show my passport - If I take the Tunnel, I have to show my passport. These restrictions all apply today.
If I have problems travelling, I would contact a British embassy ot consulate, the EU can do nothing to help me.
The only reason there is European Union printed on the front of a passport is as a pre-cursor to further centralistaion when even more powers are pulled from the countries and the masses become European Citizens - I expect that the passports then would just need to have European Empire printed on the front.

 

This is a debatable point W_Y. The extent to which citizenship of the EU. actually applies as a 'direct' relationship to the EU. in it's own right - if it can be revoked by a third party then it is not really 'citizenship' in the accepted sense. The legal position is not entirely clear, and the nature of 'EU. Citizenship is being discussed by the European Courts at the present time. If you like then EU citizenship exists as a right which stems from being a citizen of an EU. country - whatever way you care to express it, then rights are being cut off forcibly and against our will by our own countrymen. There is currently a rush to gain citizenship of EU. countries by ex pats - they are becoming Germans, French, Spanish, Irish, there are even a few becoming Rumanian. All of this in numbers never seen before. Fortunately I did all this a few years ago and now have dual nationality, and so, whatever comes of Brexit, I remain a citizen of the EU. Actually I would most like to be stateless, without any citizenship, but the World does not allow this category.

 

Strangely enough my friend from Dorset lost his passport in Paris at a time when the British embassy had packed up for the day. He found his way to the French ministry of the interior, who were very happy to help by supplying emergency travel documents.

 

The Brexit result was decided by a democratic referendum preferred by the UK parliament after an overwhelming support from MPs. The consequences, both good and not so good, must be accepted for our democratic system to retain respectability. Preference must go to those actually living in the UK. I support the present 15 year limit for ex pats, their priorities must lie with their adopted country not the one they abandoned. The exception could be those in the armed forces overseas.

Hopefully the whinging from the remainers will cease after March 2019.

 

I would find the use of the word 'abandoned' interesting, if it wasn't so offensive. People who have used the freedom of movement to relocate within the EU. can hardly be accused of abandoning anyone - had I wanted to 'abandon' the UK. I would have thrown it's passport away. We are affected by everything which Britain does as long as we share it's nationality. If you say that our priorities should lie with our adopted countries - that we have, in effect, abandoned our homeland, and become less British as a result, then surely we can extend this to cover all the Poles and Rumanians currently in the UK. According to your analysis they are now less Polish or Rumanian than they were before and their 'priorities' lie in the UK. If that is the case then what is your problem with them ?

 

European empire? ..Umm not such a bad thing... underpinned by the values and human rights we all hold dear..... a world of fraternity and security.....

 

The vast numbers that have completely changed the cultures in many areas and overburdened local amenities.

 

And the British have not done the same ? You apparently forget how many British ex pats there are in the World. Altogether around 6 million who still hold British passports - spread over Australia, the USA, Canada and the EU. Do you think that they are all contributing members of their adopted countries ? You might also ask why 10% of the British population have left the country. Scarcely a single family in the UK. had not had at least one member in the 70s/80s that left the country. You have said that your daughter has a house in Spain - which means she is registered there. Has she also abandoned the UK ?

 

So how do you square the Government refusing to publish details of advice they have received after a motion was agreed unanimously by the commons that it was necessary for the information to be made available to MPs. This is not the democratic system of respectability that you talk about. You and I place the responsibility of looking after our sovereignty in the hands of the MPs, and if the executive ignores them, then they are ignoring the will of the people. Can I assume that you will be joining with your fellow right wingers in condemnation of this high handed Government?

 

My daughter simply owns a holiday home in Spain, she lives in the UK. I have no problem at all with immigrants, just the mass uncontrolled surge that led to Brexit.

 

Yes, they are probably hiding the fact that the EU could keep us in the customs union indefinitely, which is obviously unacceptable to the majority that voted for Brexit.

 

Yes. Ignoring the rights or wrongs of the decision, I can't imagine how the UK will get beyond the divisions that have been created. Despite the hopes of SH I can't see how different groups will not continue to blame other groups. That won't just be an argument between those who want to stay and those who want to leave. Already there are divisions over ther terms of departure. There are arguments about betrayal in different parts of the U.K.

The U.K. hasn't been so divided since the civil war, which was a consequence of breaking away from Rome. It took over a hundred and forty years between the Reformation and the appointment of William of Orange before things began to settle down. Even then fighting continued sporadically. The consequences of Henry VIII's decision could not have been imagined in 1534. It worked out okay by the end of the seventeenth century but the pain was enormous. Today, unless someone can heal the body politic of the U.K. very soon, I fear the consequences of the decision to leave the EU will be equally far reaching.

 

You may well be right about what they are hiding, but you do not address the fact that your sovereignty is being stripped from you There is no telling what those who voted for Brexit thought they might be getting. You can put forward in a quite valid way that they were voting against austerity.

 

The reasons why people voted for Brexit has been well researched. The majority voted for sovereignty and proper control of immigration. The 'austerity' issues is overplayed.

 

You cannot research the reasons for 17 million people voting they way they did SH. When asked then people may give a reason rather than simply admit that it was a protest vote, or that it seemed a good idea at the time, or that their last conversation in the pub convinced them (or the headline of the Express). The problem is that people do not like admitting to stupidity, and so invent reasons when asked such questions.

 

You do not know that, but let it be. I asked you about the government refusal to publish the advice it had been given, thereby removing some of your sovereignty. Are you happy to allow them to continue in this way? It is after all on the road to taking away your ability to elect someone who will represent the best interests of you and the country.