Off Topic UK / EU Future

[colognehornet]

Please kindly point to any post of mine where I have inferred that Romanians are the only offenders? Of course they are not. They do however specialise in those areas I have mentioned. I applaud those many Romanians gainfully employed, I look forward to the UK only accepting migrants on merit not being forced to take anyone who fancies living here.

I do not think that professional visiting pickpockets actually live in the UK. They just come, do their job, and then go - and that will not be any different after Brexit. You can already stop and deny entry to known criminals - everyone else goes through, and that will not change. Start making life difficult for the millions of EU. tourists coming to London and the few pickpockets amongst them will have no victims left - because most of their victims are also foreign.

And do feel free to point to any post where you haven't.



I'm well aware of what he's trying to do. I'm fairly sure you've pointed out the above figures before as well. I also found your previous political commentary interesting.

I am also sure that I have quoted those figures before Fez. Unfortunately there is a great deal of repetition on this thread. We've just been going around the same themes using slightly different wording each time, and I'm not the only one guilty of this. The political commentary from earlier is not 'written in stone', it's just that I find the equation Fascist=Nazi=Racist=Right wing has no actual support in history - but this is not meant to be apologist for any of them. You are of course quite welcome to use the word 'Fascist' to describe anyone you like, and many people do this. However, the word comes from Latin/Roman origins and, because of the sense of resurrecting this, only really describes Mussolini's rule in Italy. Although many other dictators have copied aspects of his style. Brutal he was, a dictator also - but racist ? He had a Jewish mistress for 20 years, declared himself 'protector of Islam' and, all in all, the Italian Army saved more Jews during World War 2 (from the Nazis, from Vichy France, and from the Ustace in Croatia) than any other one organization. He was an ultra nationalist, but did not see Italy in terms of 'race' but rather as a cultural entity - similar to the Roman empire which had non Roman senators. His views on race were significantly less extreme than those which could have been found in France, England, Germany or Russia at that time. So we need to find some other word to describe Trump - as derogatory as possible please ! A while back we had a debate on here about Paulo di Canio, who claimed to be a Fascist but not a Racist - he had reasons for claiming this. But please don't presume that I am in any way being an apologist for Fascism - or even claiming them as 'brothers' by placing them partly on the left.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I find the whole question of race slightly odd. I was born in England by chance, I speak English as my first language, so therefore I must have the label made in England stuck on me. But I mix with people who were born in a number of different countries, speak their own native languages, yet although we might have slightly different viewpoints on some subjects we are all basically the same. Yes I know that we have to be registered somewhere so that we can pay our taxes, but that doesn't make us very different. You find people in all countries that are like thinkers, and others who seem to live in a different world, but I do not see too often a typical English, French or German person. How you can lump them all together in national stereotypes to put a label on them is just wrong from what I see. Pick up a handful of stones on Brighton beach and you can say they all come from the same place, but look at them and you will see they are all different. Different colours, shapes and sizes. Pick up a similar handful from a stony beach anywhere else in the world and you will see the same thing.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

I find the whole question of race slightly odd. I was born in England by chance, I speak English as my first language, so therefore I must have the label made in England stuck on me. But I mix with people who were born in a number of different countries, speak their own native languages, yet although we might have slightly different viewpoints on some subjects we are all basically the same. Yes I know that we have to be registered somewhere so that we can pay our taxes, but that doesn't make us very different. You find people in all countries that are like thinkers, and others who seem to live in a different world, but I do not see too often a typical English, French or German person. How you can lump them all together in national stereotypes to put a label on them is just wrong from what I see. Pick up a handful of stones on Brighton beach and you can say they all come from the same place, but look at them and you will see they are all different. Different colours, shapes and sizes. Pick up a similar handful from a stony beach anywhere else in the world and you will see the same thing.

Eloquently put.... i have many French friends and none of them fit the 'French stereotype'.

When i lived and worked in Asia I thought nothing of a person's colour or race etc..... but coming back to the UK was weird as i became aware of racism very soon after being back here.... it lurks in the media, in jokes, in fear etc etc...... One of my closest friends comes originally from Zimbabwe and he told me about the subtle racism he has experienced almost on a daily basis here...... it is very saddening and I had no idea.....

 

[colognehornet]

I find the whole question of race slightly odd. I was born in England by chance, I speak English as my first language, so therefore I must have the label made in England stuck on me. But I mix with people who were born in a number of different countries, speak their own native languages, yet although we might have slightly different viewpoints on some subjects we are all basically the same. Yes I know that we have to be registered somewhere so that we can pay our taxes, but that doesn't make us very different. You find people in all countries that are like thinkers, and others who seem to live in a different world, but I do not see too often a typical English, French or German person. How you can lump them all together in national stereotypes to put a label on them is just wrong from what I see. Pick up a handful of stones on Brighton beach and you can say they all come from the same place, but look at them and you will see they are all different. Different colours, shapes and sizes. Pick up a similar handful from a stony beach anywhere else in the world and you will see the same thing.

I don't think it's just a question of race Frenchie, but rather the need to split the World up into smaller groups where the individual has more sense of belonging and of community. These groups can be racial, but they can also be national, religious, based on social class, profession, even age....you can go on and on. In the era of so called globalization a new type of tribalism is emerging - you can see it in many different forms, whether with Brexit, religious fanaticism, the re emergence of ultra nationalism or racism. And normally this tribalism is reinforced by stereotyping of someone else, normally in a negative way. But you are obviously right - people are just people, with the same needs everywhere.

 

[Hornet-Fez]

I do not think that professional visiting pickpockets actually live in the UK. They just come, do their job, and then go - and that will not be any different after Brexit. You can already stop and deny entry to known criminals - everyone else goes through, and that will not change. Start making life difficult for the millions of EU. tourists coming to London and the few pickpockets amongst them will have no victims left - because most of their victims are also foreign.

I am also sure that I have quoted those figures before Fez. Unfortunately there is a great deal of repetition on this thread. We've just been going around the same themes using slightly different wording each time, and I'm not the only one guilty of this. The political commentary from earlier is not 'written in stone', it's just that I find the equation Fascist=Nazi=Racist=Right wing has no actual support in history - but this is not meant to be apologist for any of them. You are of course quite welcome to use the word 'Fascist' to describe anyone you like, and many people do this. However, the word comes from Latin/Roman origins and, because of the sense of resurrecting this, only really describes Mussolini's rule in Italy. Although many other dictators have copied aspects of his style. Brutal he was, a dictator also - but racist ? He had a Jewish mistress for 20 years, declared himself 'protector of Islam' and, all in all, the Italian Army saved more Jews during World War 2 (from the Nazis, from Vichy France, and from the Ustace in Croatia) than any other one organization. He was an ultra nationalist, but did not see Italy in terms of 'race' but rather as a cultural entity - similar to the Roman empire which had non Roman senators. His views on race were significantly less extreme than those which could have been found in France, England, Germany or Russia at that time. So we need to find some other word to describe Trump - as derogatory as possible please ! A while back we had a debate on here about Paulo di Canio, who claimed to be a Fascist but not a Racist - he had reasons for claiming this. But please don't presume that I am in any way being an apologist for Fascism - or even claiming them as 'brothers' by placing them partly on the left.

I used the word fascist as distinct from Fascist as from Nazi. And Nazi from nazi. It gets my meaning across if its not a strictly correct terminology, so that works. I find your political insights fascinating, you're obviously well read if not formally educated in political science? Not that that means I'll agree with you necessarily, of course
Mussolini was despotic but he wasn't a monster like Hitler and his henchman, though he was still monstrous.

As to doofus 45, I don't even even know where to begin other than he is not right in the head. He's surrounded himself with even more dangerous people than himself.More's the pity. He has enabled the scum of the earth. It will doubtless get worse before it gets better. Healthcare, education, basic human rights, gerrymandering, skimming, science denial, and pure unadulterated lies. There are no redeeming features about any of them. Hate is not too strong a word to describe how I feel about them all.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

I don't think it's just a question of race Frenchie, but rather the need to split the World up into smaller groups where the individual has more sense of belonging and of community. These groups can be racial, but they can also be national, religious, based on social class, profession, even age....you can go on and on. In the era of so called globalization a new type of tribalism is emerging - you can see it in many different forms, whether with Brexit, religious fanaticism, the re emergence of ultra nationalism or racism. And normally this tribalism is reinforced by stereotyping of someone else, normally in a negative way. But you are obviously right - people are just people, with the same needs everywhere.

I would say to that cologne that we as individuals can make or join a community. I find it sad that some people do not know who they live next door to. We have a community in my hamlet where we all know each other, but have vastly different backgrounds. There is only one person who has lived his whole life here, so he will have seen lots of change over his 60 years, but is one of the people very keen to see a caring community where we are there for each other. I choose to live here because it suits me to do so, and appreciate that many do not have the choice through economic reality in their lives. I also choose the groups I socialise with, often because they are like minded, or simply to enjoy each others company. What I cannot stand is being told that I must conform to something I see as harmful to myself or others. Surely in the 21st century we should have learnt by now that extremism in almost all its forms is harmful. We can see in UK politics both left and right extremism at work, and now a country that instead of making attempts to forge a better life for the majority is using division to keep people apart.

 

[superhorns]

I would say to that cologne that we as individuals can make or join a community. I find it sad that some people do not know who they live next door to. We have a community in my hamlet where we all know each other, but have vastly different backgrounds. There is only one person who has lived his whole life here, so he will have seen lots of change over his 60 years, but is one of the people very keen to see a caring community where we are there for each other. I choose to live here because it suits me to do so, and appreciate that many do not have the choice through economic reality in their lives. I also choose the groups I socialise with, often because they are like minded, or simply to enjoy each others company. What I cannot stand is being told that I must conform to something I see as harmful to myself or others. Surely in the 21st century we should have learnt by now that extremism in almost all its forms is harmful. We can see in UK politics both left and right extremism at work, and now a country that instead of making attempts to forge a better life for the majority is using division to keep people apart.

 

[superhorns]

I would say to that cologne that we as individuals can make or join a community. I find it sad that some people do not know who they live next door to. We have a community in my hamlet where we all know each other, but have vastly different backgrounds. There is only one person who has lived his whole life here, so he will have seen lots of change over his 60 years, but is one of the people very keen to see a caring community where we are there for each other. I choose to live here because it suits me to do so, and appreciate that many do not have the choice through economic reality in their lives. I also choose the groups I socialise with, often because they are like minded, or simply to enjoy each others company. What I cannot stand is being told that I must conform to something I see as harmful to myself or others. Surely in the 21st century we should have learnt by now that extremism in almost all its forms is harmful. We can see in UK politics both left and right extremism at work, and now a country that instead of making attempts to forge a better life for the majority is using division to keep people apart.

A strange comment from somebody living in France where politics of the left and right are the strongest in Europe. Didn't nearly 40% of French voters support a far right candidate at the last election? French citizens are also one of the most racist nations in Europe. It is no coincidence that the Sky cycling team have only experienced the spitting and assaults from the crowds in France, no other tours have had the same problems.

In contrast the UK has handled the vast influx of migrants from around the world rather well despite the pressure on social services it has caused in many areas.
Unlike France, the UK has not deemed it necessary to create slums (Banlieues) specifically to keep migrants apart from the locals.

 

[colognehornet]

I used the word fascist as distinct from Fascist as from Nazi. And Nazi from nazi. It gets my meaning across if its not a strictly correct terminology, so that works. I find your political insights fascinating, you're obviously well read if not formally educated in political science? Not that that means I'll agree with you necessarily, of course
Mussolini was despotic but he wasn't a monster like Hitler and his henchman, though he was still monstrous.

As to doofus 45, I don't even even know where to begin other than he is not right in the head. He's surrounded himself with even more dangerous people than himself.More's the pity. He has enabled the scum of the earth. It will doubtless get worse before it gets better. Healthcare, education, basic human rights, gerrymandering, skimming, science denial, and pure unadulterated lies. There are no redeeming features about any of them. Hate is not too strong a word to describe how I feel about them all.

I understand the problem Fez. If we analyze our language before speaking we end up saying nothing. I do not analyze the origins of the word 'prat' before using it Fascism and National Socialism present a problem because they do not neatly fall into any available catagorization on the left vs right political spectrum. If all the houses in my street are being bought up by rich millionaires from abroad and I take a stand against it then I am left wing if I refer to them as millionaire scum but right wing if I refer to their ethnic origins ? It doesn't make sense. Class war and race war can very easily overlap and Marxists, in the past, have been quite ready to allow this to happen.

 

[colognehornet]

I would say to that cologne that we as individuals can make or join a community. I find it sad that some people do not know who they live next door to. We have a community in my hamlet where we all know each other, but have vastly different backgrounds. There is only one person who has lived his whole life here, so he will have seen lots of change over his 60 years, but is one of the people very keen to see a caring community where we are there for each other. I choose to live here because it suits me to do so, and appreciate that many do not have the choice through economic reality in their lives. I also choose the groups I socialise with, often because they are like minded, or simply to enjoy each others company. What I cannot stand is being told that I must conform to something I see as harmful to myself or others. Surely in the 21st century we should have learnt by now that extremism in almost all its forms is harmful. We can see in UK politics both left and right extremism at work, and now a country that instead of making attempts to forge a better life for the majority is using division to keep people apart.

Obviously I have no way of knowing your Hamlet Frenchie, but I would suggest that there is some common denominator at work despite any differences in background - correct me if I am wrong but I would imagine you are all home owners. I would also be interested to know how you define left and right wing extremism - is there anyone in the UK. demanding the collectivization of all the means of production or taking steps towards that end ?

 

[colognehornet]

Eloquently put.... i have many French friends and none of them fit the 'French stereotype'.

When i lived and worked in Asia I thought nothing of a person's colour or race etc..... but coming back to the UK was weird as i became aware of racism very soon after being back here.... it lurks in the media, in jokes, in fear etc etc...... One of my closest friends comes originally from Zimbabwe and he told me about the subtle racism he has experienced almost on a daily basis here...... it is very saddening and I had no idea.....

Not sure about this Yorkie. The implication here is that people only meet up with racism when they arrive in Europe. Asia and Africa are riddled with this - what is India's cast system other than a form of racism ? Similarly in many African countries you will find that one 'people' or tribe constitute more or less the entire middle class, whereas another make up the police and yet another make up the lowest classes.

 

[colognehornet]

A strange comment from somebody living in France where politics of the left and right are the strongest in Europe. Didn't nearly 40% of French voters support a far right candidate at the last election? French citizens are also one of the most racist nations in Europe. It is no coincidence that the Sky cycling team have only experienced the spitting and assaults from the crowds in France, no other tours have had the same problems.

In contrast the UK has handled the vast influx of migrants from around the world rather well despite the pressure on social services it has caused in many areas.
Unlike France, the UK has not deemed it necessary to create slums (Banlieues) specifically to keep migrants apart from the locals.

By 'far right' I presume you mean Marine Le Pen ? She advocates protectionism against free trade, economic nationalism, separation of investment and retail banking. She is opposed to privatization of public services and social security. Opposed to Globalization. Favours a loosely confederate 'Europe of the Nations', modelled on Switzerland. She wants to take France out of NATO and the US. sphere of influence, and proposes the replacement of the WTO and the IMF. She supports a priviliged partnership with Russia and believes the Ukraine has been ''subjugated'' by the USA. Please tell me how you classify her as 'far right' ?

 

[superhorns]

By 'far right' I presume you mean Marine Le Pen ? She advocates protectionism against free trade, economic nationalism, separation of investment and retail banking. She is opposed to privatization of public services and social security. Opposed to Globalization. Favours a loosely confederate 'Europe of the Nations', modelled on Switzerland. She wants to take France out of NATO and the US. sphere of influence, and proposes the replacement of the WTO and the IMF. She supports a priviliged partnership with Russia and believes the Ukraine has been ''subjugated'' by the USA. Please tell me how you classify her as 'far right' ?

Le Pen's National Party is considered by everybody in politics as 'far right' mainly due to its policies on immigration. Of course that does not preclude it from coming up with policies which would even appeal to the far left just to be elected. Politicians offering 'sweets' is not a new phenomenon.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

Not sure about this Yorkie. The implication here is that people only meet up with racism when they arrive in Europe. Asia and Africa are riddled with this - what is India's cast system other than a form of racism ? Similarly in many African countries you will find that one 'people' or tribe constitute more or less the entire middle class, whereas another make up the police and yet another make up the lowest classes.

No sorry.... I was talking about me in the social context..... I didn't think of race, colour etc working over there in any way... but coming back i felt subtly imbibed with the unconscious racism that is endemic in our society. The context impacts on your frame of reference.

People in the UK do not see the racism that people of a different heritage are confronted with in so many social contexts etc etc

 

[colognehornet]

Le Pen's National Party is considered by everybody in politics as 'far right' mainly due to its policies on immigration. Of course that does not preclude it from coming up with policies which would even appeal to the far left just to be elected. Politicians offering 'sweets' is not a new phenomenon.

Does she herself use the expression 'far right' ? You are well aware that immigration has been widely used to enrich capitalism and to divide the working classes along ethnic lines so is there really a causal reason why the left should be for immigration ?

 

[superhorns]

Does she herself use the expression 'far right' ? You are well aware that immigration has been widely used to enrich capitalism and to divide the working classes along ethnic lines so is there really a causal reason why the left should be for immigration ?

It does not really matter what Le Pen calls herself, she is bound to be closely associated with her father whose politics were much easier to label.

There were plenty of Labour Party supporters, especially in the North of England, who voted for Brexit because they considered immigration negatively affected their lives.

 

[yorkshirehornet]

There were plenty of Labour Party supporters, especially in the North of England, who voted for Brexit because they considered immigration negatively affected their lives.

and sadly there is very little evidence if any to prove this 'fear' correct

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

Obviously I have no way of knowing your Hamlet Frenchie, but I would suggest that there is some common denominator at work despite any differences in background - correct me if I am wrong but I would imagine you are all home owners. I would also be interested to know how you define left and right wing extremism - is there anyone in the UK. demanding the collectivization of all the means of production or taking steps towards that end ?

I think that how we define left and right wing depends on where we stand. I take my reference point from what were known as the one one nation Tory party. What I see is right wing groups such as the EDL joining up with some UKIP branches, and they have been reported to be joining up with some Tory branches in an attempt to deselect sitting MPs. The same thing is happening within the Labour party, with people like Len McCluskey who openly admits to wanting a strong left wing agenda, and is certainly behind some branches where MP deselection is a real possibility. Like it or not these are the two major parties in the UK, and these are the type of people who are having plenty of say in how the parties are being run already, and it could get worse. We all know that Tory party membership has declined dramatically, while the opposite is true of the Labour party. Yet compared to the overall numbers of electors they are a very small proportion of the country. By driving through their own agenda of policy they do not reflect the population at large, who by and large are not political. Twenty years ago there was a middle of the road approach to governing the country which worked to some extent. The Tories moved to the right to present a difference, and have stayed there, but under the current leadership of the Labour party they have not tried to regain the middle ground, but have policies that have not caught the mood of the nation. To only be 6 points ahead of this government says more about the doubts about them, than the popularity of the government.

 

[superhorns]

I think that how we define left and right wing depends on where we stand. I take my reference point from what were known as the one one nation Tory party. What I see is right wing groups such as the EDL joining up with some UKIP branches, and they have been reported to be joining up with some Tory branches in an attempt to deselect sitting MPs. The same thing is happening within the Labour party, with people like Len McCluskey who openly admits to wanting a strong left wing agenda, and is certainly behind some branches where MP deselection is a real possibility. Like it or not these are the two major parties in the UK, and these are the type of people who are having plenty of say in how the parties are being run already, and it could get worse. We all know that Tory party membership has declined dramatically, while the opposite is true of the Labour party. Yet compared to the overall numbers of electors they are a very small proportion of the country. By driving through their own agenda of policy they do not reflect the population at large, who by and large are not political. Twenty years ago there was a middle of the road approach to governing the country which worked to some extent. The Tories moved to the right to present a difference, and have stayed there, but under the current leadership of the Labour party they have not tried to regain the middle ground, but have policies that have not caught the mood of the nation. To only be 6 points ahead of this government says more about the doubts about them, than the popularity of the government.

The 2017 general election saw the Tories win their largest vote share since 1983. Labour's share increased dramatically too. The real losers were the parties which concentrated on denying Brexit. Momentum has certainly turned the Labour Party into habitual losers also. The Tory Party remains the natural party for government.

 

[oldfrenchhorn]

The 2017 general election saw the Tories win their largest vote share since 1983. Labour's share increased dramatically too. The real losers were the parties which concentrated on denying Brexit. Momentum has certainly turned the Labour Party into habitual losers also. The Tory Party remains the natural party for government.

No mention of the Tory party being infiltrated. No mention of movement away from the Tories in the polls. I am surprised that you wish to mention the 2017 Election when the public removed the majority that the Tories held. Also you might like to give us your views on why 87% of the public have no confidence in the PM to get a good deal for the country.