Stan, it takes a lot to wind me up. Your points are well made and reasonable. I hope my responses are too.
Are there any cabbies you do like or is there just an anti-cabby thing going on at the moment and that's why you are pro-Uber?
Off Topic Uber
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Stan, it takes a lot to wind me up. Your points are well made and reasonable. I hope my responses are too.
Are there any cabbies you do like or is there just an anti-cabby thing going on at the moment and that's why you are pro-Uber?
At least we've got you posting again mate. I've had some excellent cab rides all over the place (including Dublin). Not so many in London though, lot of angry chaps about, even before Uber. Must admit that I don't like black cabs much, even the newer ones don't aim for passenger comfort. Uber do a great job for me in the U.S., better in every way than the regular cabs where I go, but I carry no particular flame for them, nor am in any way pro unfair practice.
I live fairly central so can hail black cabs on the street to get home, but if I'm travelling from home or going further I always use Addison-Lee as does Mrs Tooting.
I have no experience of Uber, but was impressed by Nines's denunciation so am now officially against them. Having said that, I am also anti Black cabs, and mini-cabs too come to think of it. A plague on all their houses (Sooper and Finglas excepted).
I have had a succession of bad experiences with all of the taxi trade over the years. Many was the time in my younger days I stopped a Black cab and asked to go to Harlesden only to be told "Ain't going there, pal. I'll never get out again!" This became such a problem that I and my pals, when getting a cab from central London, would ask to go to Wembley, safe in the knowledge that the obvious route was down the Harrow Road via Harlesden - "just drop me here, mate". I've never had the misfortune to live south of the river, but I understand that that could be a problem too.
My problems with unlicensed cabs have been all of my own making, based around the fact that I would rarely, if ever, agree a fare before setting off. This has led to several differences of opinion as to what the fare should be. Back in the eighties, I would regularly get a 'cab' from outside the Mean Fiddler to take me back to South Harrow. The fare used to be pretty constant at around the £8 mark - I would gladly hand over a tenner and everyone was happy. On one occasion though, on reaching my destination (I lived in a cul-de-sac, and would ask the cab to stop on the main drag at the end of an alley leading to my place), I was asked for £12. I offered the regulation - over the odds - £10, but this was not deemed to be acceptable. Now, I am not a confrontational person, but things went downhill from there. Negotiations broke down and I exited the cab towards the alley having paid nothing (I am not proud of this, but the man was a robber). "Give me the money man" - I turned to see the driver behind me brandishing a kitchen knife. In my drunken bravado, I was unfazed by this and held my hands aloft. "I'll tell you what I'll give you", I said, rummaging in my pocket, followed by "**** all" as I legged it down the alley to my house.
I have had a succession of bad experiences with all of the taxi trade over the years. Many was the time in my younger days I stopped a Black cab and asked to go to Harlesden only to be told "Ain't going there, pal. I'll never get out again!" This became such a problem that I and my pals, when getting a cab from central London, would ask to go to Wembley, safe in the knowledge that the obvious route was down the Harrow Road via Harlesden - "just drop me here, mate". I've never had the misfortune to live south of the river, but I understand that that could be a problem too.
My problems with unlicensed cabs have been all of my own making, based around the fact that I would rarely, if ever, agree a fare before setting off. This has led to several differences of opinion as to what the fare should be. Back in the eighties, I would regularly get a 'cab' from outside the Mean Fiddler to take me back to South Harrow. The fare used to be pretty constant at around the £8 mark - I would gladly hand over a tenner and everyone was happy. On one occasion though, on reaching my destination (I lived in a cul-de-sac, and would ask the cab to stop on the main drag at the end of an alley leading to my place), I was asked for £12. I offered the regulation - over the odds - £10, but this was not deemed to be acceptable. Now, I am not a confrontational person, but things went downhill from there. Negotiations broke down and I exited the cab towards the alley having paid nothing (I am not proud of this, but the man was a robber). "Give me the money man" - I turned to see the driver behind me brandishing a kitchen knife. In my drunken bravado, I was unfazed by this and held my hands aloft. "I'll tell you what I'll give you", I said, rummaging in my pocket, followed by "**** all" as I legged it down the alley to my house.
TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
The world is changing so IMO cabs shouldn't have a closed market
Getting from a2b is all people car about that's what a taxi is
No one gives a ****e who's driving it nor do they do a risk assessment
That's just fluff
Everyone's lives as so important in the UK that's the real problem
Take this onto planes UK people I know think easy jet rule Ryanair as if it's a UK luxury to travel
Ryanair is cheaper and quicker IMO
I use them to get from a2b
It's called modern transport and we are lucky to have that
If a new taxi service smashes the black cabs then good for them
Getting from a2b is all people car about that's what a taxi is
No one gives a ****e who's driving it nor do they do a risk assessment
That's just fluff
Everyone's lives as so important in the UK that's the real problem
Take this onto planes UK people I know think easy jet rule Ryanair as if it's a UK luxury to travel
Ryanair is cheaper and quicker IMO
I use them to get from a2b
It's called modern transport and we are lucky to have that
If a new taxi service smashes the black cabs then good for them
As this thread progresses there appear to be some misconceptions that need correcting.
All PHV drivers are licenced in London, you cannot work for any PCO Licenced company unless you have your PCO Badge. This applies to Uber who are PCO Licenced and subsequently to all their drivers. The PCO Badge is given to all drivers who have completed the Topographical Test, the enhanced CRB check, paid the Licence fees and, as in my case, if over 45 years old completed a medical. The Licence is valid for three years.
One of the major problems from the rise of Uber has been a massive increase in the issuing of new PCO Licences to drivers who have joined Uber simply to work part-time or work with multiple Apps from Hailo, Bounce and others. As a result the Met Police cannot cope with the increase in CRB checks and many drivers, both Black Taxi and PHV, are finding their renewal delayed past the expiry date on their old Licences resulting in them being unable to work. This is what has sparked the latest round of Black Taxi protests in London.
This year I renewed my Licence and the process started online with my CRB check which after three months had got nowhere. I chased this up and still got nowhere, eventually I obtained a direct dial number at Scotland Yard which on ringing was just leaving a message stating all staff were 'busy' and to try again later. After several tries I eventually got through and was assured my application would be dealt with in the next 48 hours, the person I spoke to said they were 'snowed under' with applications and currently had a backlog of 45,000 (Not all are driver related). The Addison Lee Driver Liaison also helped me out contacting someone at TfL who managed to get my Licence cleared five days before my old Licence expired yet it still took another four days before it arrived. Without their help in getting some direct contact I would have been unable to work.
The situation on insurance is complex. I drive a company car and it is insured under the company's block policy. Uber drivers are a myriad of owner-drivers, company car drivers and hire-car drivers. Many will pay the proper 'Hire & Reward' insurance on their hire cars as part of the rental agreement. Those driving company cars may be in breach of their own company insurance working for another 'supplier'. Those who are owner drivers and work part-time would find the cost of 'Hire & Reward' very steep and may just be using their normal standard car insurance which would be invalid if they were in an accident whilst working for Uber. Uber say they have a 'blanket policy' to cover their 'partners' yet there are a number of court cases active at present where this is being challenged. One of my passengers last month was a JP who said he had been on a case involving an Uber driver who had no 'Hire & Reward' insurance but claimed Uber were covering that side of his insurance. Uber had sent in an expensive lawyer who got the case adjourned to go with quite a number of such cases that will be dealt with at a higher court.
As far as Income Tax goes all PHV drivers are 'self-employed' regardless of who they work for. I drive an Addison Lee car, take all my 'fares' from Addison Lee but am classed as 'self-employed'. Other's as described above are all 'self-employed' and will submit their own returns or use an accountant. All my earnings are logged online at my driver portal and my accountant gets all the information he needs via that record.
The bottom line is everyone is trying to earn a living and the customer basically doesn't give a toss how they get home when they need a cab, hence the fact that unlicenced 'touts' prey on the pissed and needy in the West End and other lively nightspots throughout London between 11.00pm and 2.00am, these are the scumbags who are more likely to drive drunk young girls down a quiet cul-de-sac take advantage than the licenced drivers simply trying to earn.
TfL needs to either bring Uber into line with other Private Hire Operators or re-write the rules to give that level playing field. Unfortunately, I feel the LTDA won't be happy with either outcome...
All PHV drivers are licenced in London, you cannot work for any PCO Licenced company unless you have your PCO Badge. This applies to Uber who are PCO Licenced and subsequently to all their drivers. The PCO Badge is given to all drivers who have completed the Topographical Test, the enhanced CRB check, paid the Licence fees and, as in my case, if over 45 years old completed a medical. The Licence is valid for three years.
One of the major problems from the rise of Uber has been a massive increase in the issuing of new PCO Licences to drivers who have joined Uber simply to work part-time or work with multiple Apps from Hailo, Bounce and others. As a result the Met Police cannot cope with the increase in CRB checks and many drivers, both Black Taxi and PHV, are finding their renewal delayed past the expiry date on their old Licences resulting in them being unable to work. This is what has sparked the latest round of Black Taxi protests in London.
This year I renewed my Licence and the process started online with my CRB check which after three months had got nowhere. I chased this up and still got nowhere, eventually I obtained a direct dial number at Scotland Yard which on ringing was just leaving a message stating all staff were 'busy' and to try again later. After several tries I eventually got through and was assured my application would be dealt with in the next 48 hours, the person I spoke to said they were 'snowed under' with applications and currently had a backlog of 45,000 (Not all are driver related). The Addison Lee Driver Liaison also helped me out contacting someone at TfL who managed to get my Licence cleared five days before my old Licence expired yet it still took another four days before it arrived. Without their help in getting some direct contact I would have been unable to work.
The situation on insurance is complex. I drive a company car and it is insured under the company's block policy. Uber drivers are a myriad of owner-drivers, company car drivers and hire-car drivers. Many will pay the proper 'Hire & Reward' insurance on their hire cars as part of the rental agreement. Those driving company cars may be in breach of their own company insurance working for another 'supplier'. Those who are owner drivers and work part-time would find the cost of 'Hire & Reward' very steep and may just be using their normal standard car insurance which would be invalid if they were in an accident whilst working for Uber. Uber say they have a 'blanket policy' to cover their 'partners' yet there are a number of court cases active at present where this is being challenged. One of my passengers last month was a JP who said he had been on a case involving an Uber driver who had no 'Hire & Reward' insurance but claimed Uber were covering that side of his insurance. Uber had sent in an expensive lawyer who got the case adjourned to go with quite a number of such cases that will be dealt with at a higher court.
As far as Income Tax goes all PHV drivers are 'self-employed' regardless of who they work for. I drive an Addison Lee car, take all my 'fares' from Addison Lee but am classed as 'self-employed'. Other's as described above are all 'self-employed' and will submit their own returns or use an accountant. All my earnings are logged online at my driver portal and my accountant gets all the information he needs via that record.
The bottom line is everyone is trying to earn a living and the customer basically doesn't give a toss how they get home when they need a cab, hence the fact that unlicenced 'touts' prey on the pissed and needy in the West End and other lively nightspots throughout London between 11.00pm and 2.00am, these are the scumbags who are more likely to drive drunk young girls down a quiet cul-de-sac take advantage than the licenced drivers simply trying to earn.
TfL needs to either bring Uber into line with other Private Hire Operators or re-write the rules to give that level playing field. Unfortunately, I feel the LTDA won't be happy with either outcome...
Thank you Sooper. From that I can't really see what the difference is between an Uber driver and a private hire driver provided in terms of checks, insurance and tax provided they are both following the rules, although enforcement might be an issue, especially on insurance. Uber the overall company may have behavioural challenges. So is the crux of the argument the fact that Uber can (in effect) pick up from the street?
As I said in the OP, I have never used Uber in the UK. I am going to ponder further before doing so, I am finding this quite confusing.
There is no difference whatsoever between Uber drivers and other PHV drivers (assuming the Uber driver has full H & R insurance). Many Addison Lee drivers left to join Uber during late 2013 into 2014. The vast majority hired a Prius at roughly £250+ per week including insurance and many were initially earning up to £2,000 a week. Those who hired a Mercedes and worked the Uber Exec circuit were earning more than that. However, as the circuit was flooded with new drivers the earnings fell rapidly. Many drivers returned to Addison Lee within 3-6 months and, to counteract Uber, Addison Lee reviewed their payment structure, a change that has seen earnings increase by 15-20%, as well as offering special discount promotions so the customer is getting a far better deal. It is now ironic that many Uber drivers have applied to become Addison Lee drivers but have failed Addison Lee's London Knowledge test and been rejected.
Uber drivers, like all other PHV drivers, cannot be hailed in the street. There must be a recorded booking sent down to the App and the driver can then accept or reject the job. Like Black Taxis, Uber drivers may not want a job that takes them to a 'dead zone' or somewhere with notoriously heavy traffic resulting in a large amount of lost time, this cannot happen on Addison Lee as you are not allowed to reject a job without good reason.
The crux of the LTDA's 'battle' with Uber is the technology Uber use for pricing. It is a GPS linked calculator that measures distance and time and produces a charge at the end of the journey. Passengers will have been given an estimate based on the distance, but if the average speed of the journey drops below 11mph at any stage, they will incur a time charge of whatever the amount is per minute. so a 'ride' through heavily congested areas can quickly result in a £5 fare becoming £10 or more and if surge pricing was included in the booking that can end up with an eye-watering bill at the end of the journey, as happened during the recent tube strikes.
The LTDA argue that this is effectively a 'Taximeter' which only Black Taxis may use by law. I have read the appropriate wording of the law and believe if it goes through Court that Uber will win. It all hinges on the fact the law states a 'Taximeter' is a 'Mechanical device attached to the rear axle of a Taxi'. The Uber App is an electronic device linked to a GPS satellite, very different in the words of the law which Judges tend to be very clear about.
It may be that to protect the user from such inflated costs that TfL will amend the ability of companies to charge in such a way by fixing prices at the start of the journey as Addison Lee currently do. Whatever happens I think Uber have peaked already in terms of what they offer drivers and other firms have taken on the challenge as well. In such a market the customer is the winner (at present). If too many companies fall by the wayside as a result and Uber win, a monopoly will be disastrous news for all...
TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
good skills a good walk is always great for the odd ponder plus I think potentially more adventurous
For those looking at the reality of the 'Uber dream', this is nightmare many of their drivers face today...
http://www.uberlondondriver.com/?p=238
http://www.uberlondondriver.com/?p=238
Taken 3 Uber rides on my trip this week so far, all by part timers ( 3 or 4 days a week, 5 or 6 hours a day), two of them semi retired. These guys had little baskets with bottles of chilled water and sweets in their spotless cars. Uber have recently cut the drivers' take from 80% to 75% of the fare. There is also a $2 'safe drive' surcharge on every ride which (allegedly) goes to pay for police checks on drivers and insurance. Still guaranteed to be cheaper than regular taxis (which are allowed to 'surge' charge here as well, massively so, during big sporting events and conventions).
It's still a great service for consumers, but I can't see that it would generate a decent sole income for anyone, just a little supplement to another income or a pension. The size of the city and relative speed of the roads means, if they get a ride an hour, I reckon they won't make more than £12-15 an hour, out of which they have to pay the running costs of the car.
It's still a great service for consumers, but I can't see that it would generate a decent sole income for anyone, just a little supplement to another income or a pension. The size of the city and relative speed of the roads means, if they get a ride an hour, I reckon they won't make more than £12-15 an hour, out of which they have to pay the running costs of the car.
This is almost exactly the model Uber presents in it's publicity, part-timers earning a few hours 'pin-money' driving in their local city. Not a very professional operation but in cities of that size it works as local knowledge is enough to get them by with a satnav for back-up.
It's a very different ball-game in London where the sheer size of the city, the labyrinth of narrow streets and myriad of one-way systems make satnavs difficult to follow. To try and work part-time would not be cost-effective with H&R insurance costing £2,000 upwards if you are an owner-driver and those that hire their vehicles would be looking at £350-£400 oncosts including fuel before they start earning.
The TfL high court case against Uber is being heard this week, if Uber lose our Black Taxi friends will be dancing in the streets, if Uber win we can expect even more 'flash' blockade demonstrations throughout the winter months. Happy motoring...
As I mentioned previously, my wife caught a 'uber cab' or alike a couple of months ago but for me, I can't remember when I last caught a cab, something around 20 odd years ago would be a fair assessment but I would like to comment on the overall topic.
I;m all for new, cost effective services and products ( within reason ) but the one thing I'm noticing here in Oz .......... and no doubt it is happening all round the world is this.
Our incomes are being eroded each and everyday by cost cutting, ( they call it competition ) etc and I can go along with that to a certain degree, however, what I've notice is that whatever trade, service we provide today, our rates have either not increased and or gone down further, from what we were earning many years ago.
We wonder why we are going broke ............... why we nowadays struggle to pay for things that yesteryear, we didn't give a second thought to purchasing.
Example - 25 years ago, the standard rate for a carpenter was $45.00 per hour. My accountant was charging the same rate, $45.00 per hour. Now 25 years later, cost of living has risen many times over, however, you can now pick up chippy from $25.00 per hour, meanwhile the flat rate for an accountant is $150.00 per hour.
My whole point I'm trying to make is I get very peeved off when honest hardworking people, who have been in a profession for many years, are forced to continue to earn less nowadays, to provide the same service, with a smile I might add, while the government continue to let cheap labour in from overseas, who provide only have the service, half the knowledge, no warranty, no insurance, often unlicenced ....... who will undercut anyone and everyone, yet .............. we are supposed compete.
This may sound like a rant and it's more than likely is but it is happening in all markets and it concerns me.
I'm not wealthy, far from it but I do expect a certain type & quality of product and or service that can't be bought for the sake of saving a few dollars.
Honestly, I can say that I'm willing to pay the extra dollars, for the better product / service. I do it every week. I try to but Australian made & owned products first. If we can grow it here, I gladly buy it and pay the extra for it rather than cheap overseas stuff. I'm not racist, if I can buy it locally, help keep locals working, then it has to be the option both short and long term.
Same in my profession Aussie (telecoms construction) - I'm on similar rates to what I was ten years ago, but price of fuel has doubled (do about 1000 miles a week, so hits hard). The market has been flooded with Romanians and Poles who undercut, but do a ****e job and pay no respect to the H&S regulations, take every short-cut possible and leave the sites in a mess. The work load has massively increased, so the customer is getting a lot more from the engineers for the same costs 10years ago - the only losers are the hard working guys getting shafted by the big corporations amd the taxman!
TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
In an ideal world then a London Black Cab would scoot through the city with all the historical black art
Alas it's 2015 so anyone who can do it better, cheaper and supply a better service gets my vote
Once established no one will look back same as we all hoop onto cheap planes ... I get to Beziers from Luton more often than not cheaper than I can get from the south coast into London
I can get from Beziers to my home for €2 which is 45 miles into the mountains
So IMO we are talking about in the UK greed and profit to move human beings. If someone can move a human being from A to B cheaper and quicker then I say brilliant and frankly any old guard who sits and bitches is yet again another example of Dinosaur Culture
London already set to become the focus of the world for the rich No wonder I meet more and more people who are choosing to live abroad and only go into London when absolutely necessary
No one can stop this so and people in London to live will always pay whatever the price .Taxi business will just have to follow the trend so again good luck to any new idea
Alas it's 2015 so anyone who can do it better, cheaper and supply a better service gets my vote
Once established no one will look back same as we all hoop onto cheap planes ... I get to Beziers from Luton more often than not cheaper than I can get from the south coast into London
I can get from Beziers to my home for €2 which is 45 miles into the mountains
So IMO we are talking about in the UK greed and profit to move human beings. If someone can move a human being from A to B cheaper and quicker then I say brilliant and frankly any old guard who sits and bitches is yet again another example of Dinosaur Culture
London already set to become the focus of the world for the rich No wonder I meet more and more people who are choosing to live abroad and only go into London when absolutely necessary
No one can stop this so and people in London to live will always pay whatever the price .Taxi business will just have to follow the trend so again good luck to any new idea
Two things strike me about the above
1. Let some more accountants in, the hourly rate (which sounds exorbitant) will fall.
2. Those who feel that the rate for chippies is too low can always choose to employ Australians only and pay them a higher rate.
Sorry, I made a mistake, make that $250.00 per hour for the accountant, not $150.00.
Problem is when it comes to trades, most want a professional job at a handyman rate. Something has to give.......
The difference between learned / skilled professionals and unskilled rates are shrinking by the year.
A Skilled Pharmacist ( one notch down from a Doctor ) was on $65 an hour a few years ago, can now be had for as low as $30 odd dollars an hour now. This is a highly skilled profession with many years of learning, yet not a lot difference to someone who works on a checkout ( no offence to them ) ..... Just showing how $$$$ have drop.
If you hadn't notice, you can put me down to being pro cabbies or anyone else who is being challenged from a dollar point of view.
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