Off Topic Trumpy pumpy.

[moreinjuredthanowen]

whilst i agree with the general point regarding the contribution of the USSR to the defeat of the Axis forces it is almost impossible to exactly attribute the contributions of the various nations i.e. the point about the UK contribution is we didn't surrender therefore not only tying down Axis forces but more importantly in the long run not handing over control of our industry & resources and without the huge supplies ,mainly from USA, that USSR rec'd from 1943 onwards of wheat & spam to White half tracks difficult to see how they could have carried out operations like Bagration so probably best to say the USA & USSR "won" the second world war the Yanks with industry & technology the USSR with blood.
The point about propaganda holds true for 1945 by the way as certainly here there was a successful propaganda campaign designed to portray the Bolshevik regime in a positive light.

Tbh is 80% of axis forces were deployed on eastern front that tells you a huge amount.

The aerial was was western allies. Strategic bombing was theirs for sure.

The war imo was clear. By 1943 post kursk battle Germany was beaten...by Russia.

If the western allies never landed in Normandy imo the Germans would have been beaten by Russia alone.

Imo Greece and Yugoslavia was critical in 1941. Had Italy any competence or had Greece been ignored and Russia had been attacked 6/8 weeks earlier imo Moscow may gave fallen...

However for me the point has to be the story told in the West thrown popular culture. The real history is rarely discussed. The Americans are indeed accredited with winning WWii just about on their own and it's through how the story is told in movies and even documentaries.

We focus on d-day and the battle of Britain, perhaps el alemain and Sicily. There's were in fact minor battles compared to the huge battles in the east and in terms of lives lost hardly register.

But we focus couldon Our glory, but the Russians and for good reason.

Name 3 great wwii movies. Easy I think

Name 3 wwii movies on eastern front... not that easy.

 

[Angry_Physics]

I did tell you to not put any stock in my claim because I didn't provide you with the details

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

The entire German army's professional core died in Russia.
The German Airforce was destroyed in Russia
All of the initial crack divisions were destroyed in Russia.
The vast majority of German armour was destroyed in Russia

France and Belgium 516,757 dead or missing 399,856 wounded or sick (these were far less quality troops than the troops that invaded Russia after walking through Europe.

Russia OWK 2,000,000 dead or missing 3,498,059 sick or wounded of the best the German army had to offer in the first two years, with quality declining rapidly thereafter

If Germany never invaded Russia, you and I would be speaking German now

May I add most German civilians killed..... bomber command.

 

[Garlic Klopp]

"Name 3 wwii movies on eastern front... not that easy."

Cross of Iron
Stalingrad
Enemy At The Gates

 

[Angry_Physics]

May I add most German civilians killed..... bomber command.

aye.

I find it rather pathetic that recounts of German bombings of Guernica and Warsar were painted rightly as horrific and Dresden was painted as justified.

US holds the record though, incendiary bombing of Tokyo killed about 100,000 women and children in one night and 40,000 men and gov officials, defenders and so on

 

[Garlic Klopp]

Both Hitler & Napoleon found out that Russia is a bloody big place and very cold. The Russian winter helped defeat both of them.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

aye.

I find it rather pathetic that recounts of German bombings of Guernica and Warsar were painted rightly as horrific and Dresden was painted as justified.

US holds the record though, incendiary bombing of Tokyo killed about 100,000 women and children in one night and 40,000 men and gov officials, defenders and so on

Yeah Japan was mostly wood and paper and the US dropped incendiaries knowing what they would do.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

"Name 3 wwii movies on eastern front... not that easy."

Cross of Iron
Stalingrad
Enemy At The Gates

I got 1st and 3rd. Who was in "stalingrad"?

 

[Angry_Physics]

"Name 3 wwii movies on eastern front... not that easy."

Cross of Iron
Stalingrad
Enemy At The Gates

Not seen Cross of Iron, Stalingrad is awful imo and Enemy at the Gates was a complete myth as far as Vasily Zaytzev is concerned.

Zaytzev was in fact a medic who had panicked and shot a famous Russian pilot dead as he parachuted down over Stalingrad.
In True soviet propaganda fashion, they took this morale smash and turned it into a propaganda coup, and created the fantasy of Zaytzez which inspired thousands of Russian snipers who did catastrophic damage to the German officer core in Stalingrad

Source, Russian journalist in Stalingrad, Vasily Grossman, recounted by Anthony Beaver in his book Vasily Grossman

 

[Solid Air]

The entire German army's professional core died in Russia.
The German Airforce was destroyed in Russia
All of the initial crack divisions were destroyed in Russia.
The vast majority of German armour was destroyed in Russia

France and Belgium 516,757 dead or missing 399,856 wounded or sick (these were far less quality troops than the troops that invaded Russia after walking through Europe.

Russia OWK 2 million dead or missing 3,498,059 sick or wounded of the best the German army had to offer in the first two years, with quality declining rapidly thereafter

the majority of the Luftwaffe spent the war in the west so not sure how the USSR destroyed it. The majority of the Werhmacht was destroyed in USSR but you ignore my points about resources and the splitting of resources i.e. the 10000 88mm guns the Germans were using as AA weapons to protect against USAAF & RAF.
I know perfectly well the sacrifice the people of the USSR made and the damage they did with that sacrifice . .

 

[Angry_Physics]

Yeah Japan was mostly wood and paper and the US dropped incendiaries knowing what they would do.

German towns and cities were also bombed simply because they burned well.

it was a vicious war, I can't apply the morals of today to it, that would be stupid

 

[Garlic Klopp]

I got 1st and 3rd. Who was in "stalingrad"?

Their are two films of that name. One from the Russian point of view made in 2013, which I have not seen, and a German film from 1993 which I have on DVD. It shows how desperate the Germans became to capture Stalingrad and how the Russian winter affected the troops and how demoralized they became. It is very good.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

Not seen Cross of Iron, Stalingrad is awful imo and Enemy at the Gates was a complete myth as far as Vasily Zaytzev is concerned.

Zaytzev was in fact a medic who had panicked and shot a famous Russian pilot dead as he parachuted down over Stalingrad.
In True soviet propaganda fashion, they took this morale smash and turned it into a propaganda coup, and created the fantasy of Zaytzez which inspired thousands of Russian snipers who did catastrophic damage to the German officer core in Stalingrad

Cross of iron is a story about a German soldier and is made with James Coburn.

Stalingrad is made i think in Russia or with Russians.

Enemy at the gates is western interpretation of legend

 

[Solid Air]

been a couple of Russian ones showing on Sky recently Moscow 1942 and another whose title i can't remember about female sniper at Sevastapool

 

[Angry_Physics]

the majority of the Luftwaffe spent the war in the west so not sure how the USSR destroyed it. The majority of the Werhmacht was destroyed in USSR but you ignore my points about resources and the splitting of resources i.e. the 10000 88mm guns the Germans were using as AA weapons to protect against USAAF & RAF.
I know perfectly well the sacrifice the people of the USSR made and the damage they did with that sacrifice . .

The lutfwaffe for example all but destroyed it's own transport fleet just trying to supply Stalingrad after the 6th army were cut off. This was after 3 years of war there.

By the time Allied Bombing began in earnest later in the war, Germany had assigned almost all of it's remaining effective airforce to take down bombers over Germany, night and day fighters. By that time the airforce was very depleted.

Then Allied long range fighter escorts furthered the demise of the Luftwaffe, by 1944 were nothing more than cannon fodder for marauding Allied "day" fighters.

 

[Garlic Klopp]

Not seen Cross of Iron, Stalingrad is awful imo and Enemy at the Gates was a complete myth as far as Vasily Zaytzev is concerned.

Zaytzev was in fact a medic who had panicked and shot a famous Russian pilot dead as he parachuted down over Stalingrad.
In True soviet propaganda fashion, they took this morale smash and turned it into a propaganda coup, and created the fantasy of Zaytzez which inspired thousands of Russian snipers who did catastrophic damage to the German officer core in Stalingrad

Source, Russian journalist in Stalingrad, Vasily Grossman, recounted by Anthony Beaver in his book Vasily Grossman

Cross of Iron is a very good film, it follows a group of German soldiers as they retreat in the face of the Russian advance. They end up behind enemy lines and have to find their way back to their own lines, well worth a watch. James Coburn is the biggest star in it, I think he was in the US Army, but not in WW2

 

[Angry_Physics]

Cross of iron is a story about a German soldier and is made with James Coburn.

Stalingrad is made i think in Russia or with Russians.

Enemy at the gates is western interpretation of legend

Interpretation of a myth that does not even exist in Russian military documents

 

[Angry_Physics]

Cross of Iron is a very good film, it follows a group of German soldiers as they retreat in the face of the Russian advance. They end up behind enemy lines and have to find their way back to their own lines, well worth a watch. James Coburn is the biggest star in it, I think he was in the US Army, but not in WW2

I'll have to check it out. I can't watch Hollywood war films of any kind any more. Tell me it's not a Hollywood movie..

 

[Solid Air]

Their are two films of that name. One from the Russian point of view made in 2013, which I have not seen, and a German film from 1993 which I have on DVD. It shows how desperate the Germans became to capture Stalingrad and how the Russian winter affected the troops and how demoralized they became. It is very good.

have you read Antony Beevors Stalingrad - highly recommended if not.

 

[moreinjuredthanowen]

On the other hand without even trying.

Battle of Britain.
Patton
Battle of bulge
The longest day
Private Ryan
The great escape
Escape to victory
Von Ryan's express
Band of brothers though not a movie
Schindlers list
A bridge too far
Das boot
Kelkys heros (a personal favorite)
Dirty dozen
Big red one
Fury
inglorious
Sink the Bismarck
Dambusters
Desert fox
Guns of navarone
Force 10
Tuskegee
Valkire
Hell is for heros

Others one I can't think of name with yanks training special forces in Scotland. James Garber was in it.

I've left out Pacific based movies

Like midway etc