Thomas Frank & Johan Lange (& Fabio Paratici) Watch

[PowerSpurs]

The main reason we haven't achieved the same results in half the time is down to poor decisions in the wake of successful periods of development. While I don't expect Levy to get every decision right - it is unrealistic to do so - he has got too much wrong and not enough right in this regard.

Seeking to build on BMJ's progress with Ramos set us back by 3 years. Seeking to build on Harry's progress with AVB/Tim set us back another 3 years and so far we have pissed away 2 years trying to build on Poch. Allowing for 3 years to get themselves established before we accidentally stumbled into the Jol era in 2004, that's 8 sub par years out of 17. It's a lot, but broadly speaking we've still seen progress in more seasons than not. Just.

The fact that those years haven't affected us even more negatively is testament to the disproportionate achievements of our 3 strongest managers but is also down to the extent to which Levy has grown the club's global standing and reach.

That said, we are now on thin ice. If Levy gets the next appointment wrong, we'd be looking at 9-10 sub par years out of 20. And if a chairman delivers what is essentially a 50% success or progress rate, their input and expertise is equal to flipping a coin and should be heavily doubted. He has to get the next one right.

I think your measure is wrong. Under the good managers we've got a lot better, under the others we've only regressed slightly. So it's a much better than 50% success ratio. If you look at managers appointed elsewhere since 2001, then outside Chelsea and Man City you will struggle to find a handful who have made any sort of improvement anywhere.
Maintaining a football club in the top 6 is hard. Getting it from mid table to the top 6 is harder still. Building the infrastructure to give a long-term edge is harder than that. ENIC have managed all three and just missed out on trophies along the way.

 

[remembercolinlee]

Those clubs are all significantly smaller clubs than Spurs, some have had worse owners than ENIC over the years and some have not, there is no comparison to be made. All ENIC have done is return Spurs back to where they belong, which is among the top 6 clubs in England, from where Sugar left the club, any kind of half decent owners would have achieved at least the same, in probably half the time, it really was not a difficult job to resuscitate Spurs when you look at the size of the club, but after 20 years, we are still waiting for meaningful ambition to be shown on the pitch. Instead of comparing us to the likes of Everton, Aston Villa etc, why not compare us to Arsenal, United and Pool etc, because that is where we belong.

After two decades of failure, some of our fans seem to have developed something akin to Stockholm Syndrome with regard to ENIC, over the course of 20 years some fans have developed an unhealthy psychological connection and positive feeling towards ENIC and Levy, so much so that they can see no wrong in what they are doing and resent anything or anybody that may be trying to change the situation they are in for the better.

Personally speaking I do not get the idea that a club belongs anywhere.
We do not "belong" in the top 6 imo...like every club you belong where your performances take you.

 

[KingHotspur]

Personally speaking I do not get the idea that a club belongs anywhere.
We do not "belong" in the top 6 imo...like every club you belong where your performances take you.

You’re right but it’s better to compare to Utd and Liverpool and aim for those standards than say Villa, Leeds and Sunderland

 

[remembercolinlee]

You’re right but it’s better to compare to Utd and Liverpool and aim for those standards than say Villa, Leeds and Sunderland

Agreed but it is definitely worth remembering that until 2003 when Leeds imploded by making moronic decisions we'd have killed to be in their position and it was only in around 2006 that we caught up with Villa but it took until 2010 for us to finally leave them behind.

 

[humanbeingincroydon]

Agreed but it is definitely worth remembering that until 2003 when Leeds imploded by making moronic decisions we'd have killed to be in their position and it was only in around 2006 that we caught up with Villa but it took until 2010 for us to finally leave them behind.

And let;s not forget that even last summer there were people on here envious of Everton because they signed James Rodriguez

And don't get me started about how r/coys responds to every single club's takeover rumour as the grim inevitability that we'll get left behind

 

[PowerSpurs]

You’re right but it’s better to compare to Utd and Liverpool and aim for those standards than say Villa, Leeds and Sunderland

The point is that on an average league position measure we're almost exactly level with Man U, Liverpool and Chelsea and ahead of Arsenal. That is not in any sense a failure even if we've had an unusually hard time at the sharp end of cup competitions.

 

[Billy The Spur]

And on your point about Arsenal, Man U and Liverpool, they have all won the league many more times than us and have generally finished well ahead of us so it is again ridiculous to say that it is somehow expected for us to belong with them. Under ENIC in the last ten years we've been approximately level pegging. Again, the only other time that has happened is the 60s.

And yet some ENIC apologists claim to not gauge a club by the number of trophies they win, and we have also had other periods in our history when we regularly finished in the top 4 or 6, such as the 80`s. There is also a good chance Spurs would have won a lot more trophies over the years, if it were not for firstly the misery of Sugar and now the misery of ENIC. The very fact Spurs have won so little over the last 30 years is largely down to ENIC. No offence, but are you actually related to Levy or part of ENIC?

 

[remembercolinlee]

Probably not a popular view but can we try and have a debate without making it personal?
Over the past 2 or 3 weeks the levels of petty insults have gone up up and tbh it's pretty boring.

I have made my views known and have disagreed with most on here but think (like many others) I have been respectful.

But some posters on all sides of the Levy in, Levy out, enic in, enic out, what type of owners would be acceptable etc are making the mistake of making personal comments.

I ain't criticising passion or humour (apart from when @Spurlock @Dier Hard @C. Kane mug me over ) but to be honest it's getting a bit boring.

I like the debates on here and it's interesting to see other views but I would hate to see us go the way of the Arsenal and Chelsea boards which used to be bust but died out cos it just became a bit of a pointless slanging match from what I saw.

 

[Citizen Kane.]

I think your measure is wrong. Under the good managers we've got a lot better, under the others we've only regressed slightly. So it's a much better than 50% success ratio. If you look at managers appointed elsewhere since 2001, then outside Chelsea and Man City you will struggle to find a handful who have made any sort of improvement anywhere.
Maintaining a football club in the top 6 is hard. Getting it from mid table to the top 6 is harder still. Building the infrastructure to give a long-term edge is harder than that. ENIC have managed all three and just missed out on trophies along the way.

It's hard to pin down any objectively reliable form of measuring this. A good place to start is by looking at league positions plotted out on a graph. If the curve is creeping consistently upward, that is a sure a sign of progress as any. By that margin, I'd disagree that we've regressed 'only slightly' in the past 4 seasons. 3rd to 4th to 6th to 7th would be considered - in any other industry - clear warning signs of entrenched regression. Imagine a global shoe retailer who watched their market share shrink from 3rd to 7th in the space of 4 years. They'd probably panic and clear shop at board level.

What worries many fans is that this regression had clearly more than started already under Poch, whereas what followed from BMJ and Harry was more akin to a 'hard break' from success to regression. What I mean by this is that this time round, it looks more than just a 'blip' and bears the hallmarks of a series of poor decisions. Levy admitted as much in his end of season notes, so I don't see much of a case to argue this point.

In any event, using this measure, Rodgers, Bielsa and Smith have all been successful appointments. Early indicators say Moyes is too. Add in the 4 clubs who can out-spend us at every turn and there are plenty of mid to top half sides who are improving all the time.

 

[Dier Hard]

I ain't criticising passion of humour (apart from when @Spurlock @Dier Hard @C. Kane mug me over ) but to be honest it's getting a bit boring.

Blame my Mum, she raised a dickhead.

 

[remembercolinlee]

Blame my Mum, she raised a dickhead.

 

[PowerSpurs]

It's hard to pin down any objectively reliable form of measuring this. A good place to start is by looking at league positions plotted out on a graph. If the curve is creeping consistently upward, that is a sure a sign of progress as any. By that margin, I'd disagree that we've regressed 'only slightly' in the past 4 seasons. 3rd to 4th to 6th to 7th would be considered - in any other industry - clear warning signs of entrenched regression. Imagine a global shoe retailer who watched their market share shrink from 3rd to 7th in the space of 4 years. They'd probably panic and clear shop at board level.

What worries many fans is that this regression had clearly more than started already under Poch, whereas what followed from BMJ and Harry was more akin to a 'hard break' from success to regression. What I mean by this is that this time round, it looks more than just a 'blip' and bears the hallmarks of a series of poor decisions. Levy admitted as much in his end of season notes, so I don't see much of a case to argue this point.

In any event, using this measure, Rodgers, Bielsa and Smith have all been successful appointments. Early indicators say Moyes is too. Add in the 4 clubs who can out-spend us at every turn and there are plenty of mid to top half sides who are improving all the time.

I posted such a graph a couple of weeks ago. But I think you need at around 200 matches to get rid of random noise so I did it on a rolling six year average. On that measure there are a couple of flat years but no obvious down period. And the trend is still upwards. Arsenal and Man U are in a definite downtrend and Chelsea and Liverpool are about flat.

 

[Diego]

I posted such a graph a couple of weeks ago. But I think you need at around 200 matches to get rid of random noise so I did it on a rolling six year average. On that measure there are a couple of flat years but no obvious down period. And the trend is still upwards. Arsenal and Man U are in a definite downtrend and Chelsea and Liverpool are about flat.

I was thinking about that, you are looking good in a time when rivals are really poor. Is that a true improvement?

 

[PowerSpurs]

I was thinking about that, you are looking good in a time when rivals are really poor. Is that a true improvement?

I think football success is relative so yes, but it's an interesting question.

 

[PowerSpurs]

And yet some ENIC apologists claim to not gauge a club by the number of trophies they win, and we have also had other periods in our history when we regularly finished in the top 4 or 6, such as the 80`s. There is also a good chance Spurs would have won a lot more trophies over the years, if it were not for firstly the misery of Sugar and now the misery of ENIC. The very fact Spurs have won so little over the last 30 years is largely down to ENIC. No offence, but are you actually related to Levy or part of ENIC?

I am only happy with measuring our performance on League position. League championships are a much better surrogate for league position than cup wins but Arsenal, Liverpool and Man United are well clear of us on any measure.
No, I have no association with ENIC or Levy at all. I am judging them entirely on data and strategy. The fact that they noticed how far behind we were commercially and did something about it gives them a lot of credit for me.
And by the way, in the 80s our average league position was 7.5 and we were in the top six just half the time, 3rd at best. In the 2010s we were in the top 6 every year for the first time ever and averaged 4th. So ENIC have actually made us a true top 6 club.
I too wish that ENIC had risked a bit more cash on players. But there is no guarantee that would have actually made a difference to winning trophies or even league placings. These days it is quite unusual for someone outside the top 5 to win anything. Oddly we are one of the few counter examples.

 

[PowerSpurs]

Blame my Mum, she raised a dickhead.

A dickhead was also probably involved a bit before she started raising you to be fair.
Same for all of us.

 

[Dier Hard]

A dickhead was also probably involved a bit before she started raising you to be fair.
Same for all of us.

True, my Dad’s a massive dickhead.

 

[PowerSpurs]

True, my Dad’s a massive dickhead.

Too much information?

 

[PowerSpurs]

I am only happy with measuring our performance on League position. League championships are a much better surrogate for league position than cup wins but Arsenal, Liverpool and Man United are well clear of us on any measure.
No, I have no association with ENIC or Levy at all. I am judging them entirely on data and strategy. The fact that they noticed how far behind we were commercially and did something about it gives them a lot of credit for me.
And by the way, in the 80s our average league position was 7.5 and we were in the top six just half the time, 3rd at best. In the 2010s we were in the top 6 every year for the first time ever and averaged 4th. So ENIC have actually made us a true top 6 club.
I too wish that ENIC had risked a bit more cash on players. But there is no guarantee that would have actually made a difference to winning trophies or even league placings. These days it is quite unusual for someone outside the top 5 to win anything. Oddly we are one of the few counter examples.

Finally, in this calculation of an all time league table we are tenth, a bit above West Brom but almost level with Chelsea. Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal and Man U are way ahead and we are also well behind Aston Villa, Sunderland, Newcastle and Man City.
http://alltimeleaguetable.co.uk/

 

[SpursDisciple]

Blame my Mum, she raised a dickhead.

Damn you Mrs Hard.