Off Topic The Politics Thread
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They won't be ignored, it will just prove too complicated, unless we go for a complete break (which we could do now, but obviously there is no stomach for it) and spend all the parliamentary time for the rest of my lifetime repealing EU legislation. For Goldie, Col etc, I am not saying that to be provocative, I think cold feet will set in, even amongst some Govt Brexiters, when the enormity of the task sinks in. As Tooting says we may well end up in an involuntary Norway situation - accepting all the rules but not voting, because government will want to maintain the illusion that we have left. I would prefer us to stay fully in with a positive agenda for reform, but failing that a clean break, leave and then negotiate trade etc.
On the tax thing, what is Apple's status in Ireland? How many people do thy employ. Companies, like mine, which are not HQ'd in the EU can trade freely there if they have inward investment and real operations in the area. We pay corporation tax in the US. I think firms should pay corporation tax where they are based and tax on sales wherever they have sales. Apple really is a fraud (though I love its kit) research in California, manufacturing in China, claiming all its non US profits are spent on R&D and funnelling them back via Cork virtually tax free. It's a scam.
You're on. Though we have to agree on a definition of out. I think anything that exempts us from free movement of people, EU legislation and regulation, and EU justice bodies should do for me.
If it doesn't include those things, we've left. But by definition the single market includes free movement of people (along with goods and capital) and accepting EU regulation of those markets so I don't think we can really say we have left while we are still in it. We would be just like Norway. We could leave and have a trade agreement of course.
Over 4,000 employees at Apple in Cork. Over 25% of their entire EU workforce. The reporting of all their sales might be a scam but they do employ significant numbers of staff too.
Thats how Ireland want to attract outside companies, by not following the same rules and regulations as other EU countries.
A record number of investments were made by foreign firms in the UK in the year to April 2016, according to government figures.
The Department for International Trade recorded 2,213 inward investment projects, up 11% on the previous year.
The data shows the UK is the most popular destination in the European Union for overseas firms.
The Department for International Trade recorded 2,213 inward investment projects, up 11% on the previous year.
The data shows the UK is the most popular destination in the European Union for overseas firms.
Surely Apple will consider it more worthwhile to spend countless millions in court on a deliberately drawn out case. No penalties to anyone until it gets decided in 5 years time at some pitiful figure.
At very worst, Apple stand to make a hell of a lot more return investment on 14 billion less legal costs than stumping up immediately.
At very worst, Apple stand to make a hell of a lot more return investment on 14 billion less legal costs than stumping up immediately.
It's actually 5,500 Fingy. Still less than the UK, according to Apple's corporate website. I guess that those 5,500 pay more collectively in tax than the company which employs them.
US reaction pretty vitriolic. TTIP looking dead in the water.
I was working earlier so couldn't reply. Yes, in the UK they have more employees but their roles are different compared to their Irish operation. In the UK, they employ retail staff to sell their products in High Street shops. Cork is the European HQ and they carry out Product Support for the entire continent as well as Administration. There are scores of American companies with their European HQ in Ireland so the decision to appeal the ruling has a huge amount of jobs potentially riding on it for this country. I was listening to RTE radio earlier and in a phone in show, they conducted a 5 minute phone poll to see if people thought we should accept the decision or take the 13BN from Apple. You would imagine people we overwhelmingly say we should take the 13BN and use it to pay for some new hospitals and schools but surprisingly, over 56% of 3,000 respondents thought we should appeal the decision by the EU. Thank god we have some intelligent people who see the full picture.
Why do apple have headquarters in Ireland
Are the Irish tax deals illegal
Are tax rates in the rest of Europe the same level and Ireland's different
What are the fines for
How does apple Starbucks Google etc get away with paying very little tax
Are there loopholes all the other countries should be closing to stop it
Should apple move their headquarters away from Ireland will the voters still be happy to have forgone the money
Are the Irish tax deals illegal
Are tax rates in the rest of Europe the same level and Ireland's different
What are the fines for
How does apple Starbucks Google etc get away with paying very little tax
Are there loopholes all the other countries should be closing to stop it
Should apple move their headquarters away from Ireland will the voters still be happy to have forgone the money
So many questions there Kiwi, I will do my best to answer them.
1, Why do Apple have HQ in Ireland - we are an English speaking euro-zone country with a good educated work force and being here gives them access to a market of 500m people. They did a deal with the Irish Government many years ago which has now been deemed illegal. The Irish Government offer Corporation tax rates to such companies at 12.5% when most other EU countries charge 20%++. The EU are trying to dictate our tax policy but at the moment, there is nothing they can do about how much tax we charge multi-nationals. To maintain the status quo, Apple and the Irish government need to win the appeal. All big multi-nationals just like rich individuals try to pay as little tax as possible, that's how they are rich whilst the rest of us suckers cough up. The EU try to levy fines for everything, not just tax avoidance. If they fine us, it will be a pittance compared to the interest we get charged on the bail out loans they gave us. Imagine, 42% of the entire EU bank debt put on to 1% of the population. To add insult to injury, they then charge us scandalous rates of interest compared to the other bail out countries so a few tens of millions here or there is not too relevant in the grand scheme of things.
2. Should Apple move their HQ away from Ireland will the voters still be happy to have forgone the money?
I wouldn't imagine they would be very happy with that scenario. The Americans aren't too happy that the EU says Apple owe the money to the Irish Government. They would like to claim a large slice of the 13BN and probably rightly so. Most people here seem to agree that we should appeal the decision in the interests of keeping Apple and the likes here. Having said that, there is nothing stopping them going and setting up their HQ in Morocco or Bangladesh or some other low cost economy tomorrow if they choose to do so.
3. How does Starbucks/Google get away with paying so little tax.
Like all big multi-nationals, they pay as little as possible. How much tax does Vodafone pay? They are a large British multi-national. They all pay very little. Google was reporting all their worldwide sales through their European HQ here until recently and they have been ordered to pay taxes in the countries where the sales took place. I think the UK will benefit by something like £100m per year or something like that.
If Ireland wants to charge 12.5% what has it got to do with Europe
If that's the local tax rate what is the fine for
Sorry if you have explained this elsewhere fingy
But how are co.panies able to sort it so they don't pay their correct taxes in the countries they operate in and not just where the headquarters are
Maybe we need a turnover tax
If that's the local tax rate what is the fine for
Sorry if you have explained this elsewhere fingy
But how are co.panies able to sort it so they don't pay their correct taxes in the countries they operate in and not just where the headquarters are
Maybe we need a turnover tax
My understanding (and I'm not sure what my opinion is on it, TBH). Any country in the EU can set its corporation tax to whatever value they like. In Ireland, it's 12.5%. What Ireland has done with Apple is cut a deal where they only pay 1% rather than 12.5% - which encouraged Apple to locate their European HQ in Ireland rather than the UK or wherever and employ lots of people. So, good for job creation, although bad for corporation tax revenues.
EDIT: As I read a bit deeper, it probably wasn't a flat "1%", but something a bit more variable, focusing on some sales rather than others - so don't beat me up on the detail, OK?
This is (apparently) against the spirit and agreement of being in the EU, which says something like "if you're going to benefit from being in the club, you can't act in a way that picks out one company and gives them an advantage at the expense of all those other companies that don't get the same deal." The idea behind it seems to be that a large megacorp shouldn't be able to use its muscle to cut a deal with a financially weak government. It's not to stop countries being flexible, it's to help prevent them from being bullied and to give them an unfair advantage over other companies in the same country.
So, Kiwi, it seems like Ireland can set whatever corporation tax rate it wants to, but it must be the same for all companies. whether it is a good policy or not, or whether it works or not is something I'm not sure about either way.
Regarding your other question... Companies who make and sell in one country should theoretically pay corporation tax in that country. For example, in the UK, we make and sell Foreign-Owned cars (this is a hypothetical example, here, OK?). The profit on those Foreign-Owned cars should result in a corporation tax bill in the UK into our public funds. However, Foreign-Owned may have an European or worldwide HQ somewhere else - that often has a lower rate of tax for companies than the UK does. So, the UK branch of Foreign-Owned gets charged a fee or royalty for hypothetical knowhow from worldwide HQ (which may or may not exist) that allowed them to make the cars. Strangely enough, it wipes out the profit that the UK would otherwise have made, so there's no tax due in the UK.
This seems to be what Apple has done, BTW - all sales in other EU countries seem to end up being revenue in Ireland in the form of royalties rather in the country they were actually sold.
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