Off Topic The Politics Thread
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Inflation Inflation Inflation!
While watching a nostalgic video this morning on the UK'S legendary 1976 heatwave they mentioned a few facts about the average cost of certain things at that time in the UK.
A pint of beer = 25p
Cost to fill up a car £5
Average house price £12,500
Flash forward to 2016
A pint of beer = £3.46 increase of 1284%
Cost to fill up a car £60.65 increase of 1200%
Average house price £200,000 increase of 1500%
That's an amazing jump when you consider the fact that the average wage has only risen 637% from £3744 in 1976 to £27,600 in 2016.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there could be trouble ahead.
While watching a nostalgic video this morning on the UK'S legendary 1976 heatwave they mentioned a few facts about the average cost of certain things at that time in the UK.
A pint of beer = 25p
Cost to fill up a car £5
Average house price £12,500
Flash forward to 2016
A pint of beer = £3.46 increase of 1284%
Cost to fill up a car £60.65 increase of 1200%
Average house price £200,000 increase of 1500%
That's an amazing jump when you consider the fact that the average wage has only risen 637% from £3744 in 1976 to £27,600 in 2016.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there could be trouble ahead.
Soon they will be able to come here and avoid tax without the pesky EU interfering.
May gathering the mighty intellects of her cabinet at Chequers to 'ask for their ideas about Brexit'. Speculation that Johnson will suggest a second referendum on new negotiated 'stay in' terms. I somehow doubt that the EU has the appetite for more of that, and I know I don't. Hammond desperate to stay in single market for the City. 'Dr' Fox can't negotiate any trade deals while we are in the EU, which is handy as he hasn't got any competent staff. Everybody beginning to recognise that it's all a bit more complicated than it said on the packet. 40 years worth of EU legislation and regulations to examine and decide to keep or dump - likely that we will just keep the lot. Good chance that we will stay in a sort of no mans land, but de facto a non voting, fee paying member, for years.
Meanwhile the US-EU TTIP negotiations appear to be in crisis. Probably a good thing.
I said before, we will leave the EU - thereby honouring the referendum - but still be in the single market, with free movement and paying contributions, and having no say in the rules. In other words, a fudge which none of us voted for if you think about it.
Either that or they'll set up a Royal commission under Chilcott
'Brexit means Brexit'.
Yes Teresa, and lunch means lunch, but what are we going to have?
Yes because to pay it would be an admission of state aid which would mean that the Irish Government had acted illegally and would be open to more EU punishment beatings......sorry fines that would further screw up our economy. Both the Government and Apple are going to appeal the decision to an EU Court......
Where's Fingy when you need someone to stand up for the European Commission...?
Where's Fingy when you need someone to stand up for the European Commission...?
Don't you think that Apple should pay the tax then Goldie?
On the superficial knowledge that I have on this case, Strolls, I think the Commission is right on Apple. I hope it's the first of a number of multinationals that pay back tax for use complex and untenable arrangements to avoid paying tax virtually anywhere in the world. I hope the British Government will look at this, although since there seems to be a territorial fight at the moment between the UK and the remainder of the EU members that are trying to take business from London, we may have to wait to see any progress here, since Mrs May will be handing out sweeteners to the MNC's.
Seems tough for the Commission to fine Ireland too, if that's in the pipeline...but then what do I know?
The commission are fining Dublin for applying different tax rules to different companies. I'm sure a lot of Irish companies would like to pay the same tax rates as apple and a few others.
I can understand that. This case could have big implications for tax treaties the world over, and I'm wondering whether Ireland will be so pro-EU at the end of it.
"
Apparently no fine or penalty has been levied against the Irish state, they are however required to extract the tax from Apple. Who gets to keep the tax will be a very different issue.
Apple’s billions in back taxes could cover the entire annual Irish health budget, build about 100,000 homes for the poor or pay off a chunk of the nation’s debt. So why doesn’t the government want the money?
Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan on Tuesday vowed to fight a European Commission ruling that could force the world’s richest company to pay it at least 13 billion euros ($14.5 billion), more than twice the country’s entire 2015 corporate tax take and equivalent to about $3,000 for every man, woman and child. He drew fire from opposition lawmakers who say Dublin should take the money. For the government, though, the stakes are higher.
The country’s corporate tax regime is a cornerstone of its economic policy, attracting Google Inc. and Facebook Inc. to Dublin. Even when Ireland was forced to seek an international bailout six years ago, it resisted pressure to change how it taxes companies. While the Apple ruling doesn’t directly threaten the 12.5 percent rate, the government has promised to stand by executives it says are helping the economy.
"To do anything else, it would be like eating the seed potatoes,” Noonan told broadcaster RTE on Tuesday, adding a failure to fight the case would hurt future generations.
No Deal
Apple and Ireland deny any wrongdoing and say no sweetheart deal was ever agreed. The iPhone-maker is one of more than 700 U.S. companies that have units there, employing a combined 140,000 people, according to the American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland.
For Apple, the arrears are a drop in its vast ocean of cash. As of last month, Apple had $232 billion, with about $214 billion of that held overseas. The company generated about $4.45 billion a month last year, so the arrears figure works out to about three months of profit.
For a quick wrap of analyst commentary on Apple today, click here.
“It’s all about our reputation,” said Peter Vale, tax partner at Grant Thornton Ireland in Dublin. “It’s not the number that is a problem per se, it is the implication that Ireland engages in some kind of funny business around tax, the idea that we give special deals and so on.”
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The government maintains that even if it were to take the cash, European rules mean it would have to use the money to pay down some of its 180 billion euros of national debt rather than fund spending. Yet, with Ireland’s health service creaking, pressure is beginning to mount for the government to change course. Opposition party Sinn Fein said the government shouldn’t appeal any adverse ruling, saying the idea was “farcical.”
The government “will actively try to avoid recouping tax revenue owed to the Irish people,” Matt Carthy, a Sinn Fein member of the European Parliament said in a statement. “There is no justification to challenge a ruling against this deal, and the government should immediately rule out an appeal.”
Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan on Tuesday vowed to fight a European Commission ruling that could force the world’s richest company to pay it at least 13 billion euros ($14.5 billion), more than twice the country’s entire 2015 corporate tax take and equivalent to about $3,000 for every man, woman and child. He drew fire from opposition lawmakers who say Dublin should take the money. For the government, though, the stakes are higher.
The country’s corporate tax regime is a cornerstone of its economic policy, attracting Google Inc. and Facebook Inc. to Dublin. Even when Ireland was forced to seek an international bailout six years ago, it resisted pressure to change how it taxes companies. While the Apple ruling doesn’t directly threaten the 12.5 percent rate, the government has promised to stand by executives it says are helping the economy.
"To do anything else, it would be like eating the seed potatoes,” Noonan told broadcaster RTE on Tuesday, adding a failure to fight the case would hurt future generations.
No Deal
Apple and Ireland deny any wrongdoing and say no sweetheart deal was ever agreed. The iPhone-maker is one of more than 700 U.S. companies that have units there, employing a combined 140,000 people, according to the American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland.
For Apple, the arrears are a drop in its vast ocean of cash. As of last month, Apple had $232 billion, with about $214 billion of that held overseas. The company generated about $4.45 billion a month last year, so the arrears figure works out to about three months of profit.
For a quick wrap of analyst commentary on Apple today, click here.
“It’s all about our reputation,” said Peter Vale, tax partner at Grant Thornton Ireland in Dublin. “It’s not the number that is a problem per se, it is the implication that Ireland engages in some kind of funny business around tax, the idea that we give special deals and so on.”
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Get our markets daily newsletter.
The government maintains that even if it were to take the cash, European rules mean it would have to use the money to pay down some of its 180 billion euros of national debt rather than fund spending. Yet, with Ireland’s health service creaking, pressure is beginning to mount for the government to change course. Opposition party Sinn Fein said the government shouldn’t appeal any adverse ruling, saying the idea was “farcical.”
The government “will actively try to avoid recouping tax revenue owed to the Irish people,” Matt Carthy, a Sinn Fein member of the European Parliament said in a statement. “There is no justification to challenge a ruling against this deal, and the government should immediately rule out an appeal.”
Is Ireland a pro-EU country? Absolutely. If we held a referendum here, I reckon at least 80% would vote stay, if not more.
The Irish government did a deal with Apple and they have been found to have broken the law. That's fair enough. I don't think we should take the 13BN that Apple have been ordered to pay us in unpaid taxes. As Shawswood points out, other countries would probably claim their part in the unpaid taxes as the profits Apple made were generated Worldwide. Whether such countries got any of the dosh or not is another matter. I think both Ireland and Apple should appeal the judgement as it is in our long term interests to have such companies here. If we accept the judgement and take the 13BN from Apple, they will simply find somewhere else to operate from. This country is hugely dependant on multi-national jobs particularly from American companies. If we accept the judgement and the 13BN, we can wave goodbye to literally tens of thousands of multi-national jobs here.
I'm not too sure the likes of Apple will be flocking to a post Brexit UK Stan. What would the attraction be for them? Yes they wouldn't be subject to EU rules and regulations but they want a presence in the EU, not a presence out of it. Why do you consider they might want to go there instead?
The Irish government did a deal with Apple and they have been found to have broken the law. That's fair enough. I don't think we should take the 13BN that Apple have been ordered to pay us in unpaid taxes. As Shawswood points out, other countries would probably claim their part in the unpaid taxes as the profits Apple made were generated Worldwide. Whether such countries got any of the dosh or not is another matter. I think both Ireland and Apple should appeal the judgement as it is in our long term interests to have such companies here. If we accept the judgement and take the 13BN from Apple, they will simply find somewhere else to operate from. This country is hugely dependant on multi-national jobs particularly from American companies. If we accept the judgement and the 13BN, we can wave goodbye to literally tens of thousands of multi-national jobs here.
I'm not too sure the likes of Apple will be flocking to a post Brexit UK Stan. What would the attraction be for them? Yes they wouldn't be subject to EU rules and regulations but they want a presence in the EU, not a presence out of it. Why do you consider they might want to go there instead?
Purely for tax reasons Fingy. We already have a corporation tax half that of the US, and it is set to lower. Moving corporate headquarters here (only has to be nominal numbers) makes sense. It's why Pfizer wanted to buy AZ.
But I am increasingly confident that we won't leave the EU, whatever May says.
For tax reasons? That is the reason the likes of Apple are here in the first place. If you want to have access to the single market, you will still be subject to the same rules and regulations as other EU countries. Leaving the EU won't help attract companies like Apple, it will do the opposite.
I thought Brexit was very firmly going ahead. Why do you think it won't happen? The leave voters won't be very happy if their vote is ignored.