I could up the remain quota by considering myself London, as Londoner by birth and inclination, even though I live in the West Midlands. The age divide is interesting, I had the impression that us old geezers were much more anti than shown.
Off Topic The Politics Thread
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I bet if those Guardian readers had been in 1970's Russia, they'd have voted to retain the Soviet Union too. The EU model relies on sucking out the democracy from member states. It's outmoded and destined to fail.
If I were to post 'I bet if those UKIP members had been in 1930's Germany, they'd have voted to retain the Nazi model too' there would be justified outrage. Keep it clean mate. Anyway, everyone knows Grauniad readers have more time for Maoist China.
I would never have had you down as a Green voting 23 year old Chaz. You learn something new everyday.
I don't think suggesting Guardian readers wishing to retain an outmoded and clunky Soviet Union in the 1970's (there was no ethnic cleansing taking place then) is even slightly comparable with comparing UKIP members to Nazis about to embark on genocide. Tell me how?
Because the intent of the statement is to insult and denigrate, not to make any genuine factual comparison. And if you do think you made a factually accurate statement this campaign has driven a worm deep into your sense of perspective.
It wasn't intended to insult or denigrate, but clearly, I've discovered which paper you read and hit a soft spot... It was Gorbachev that said he could never understand why, after the abject failure of the Soviet Union, Europe was intending to set up something similar. That's the point I was trying to make
Wrong on the paper and wrong on the soft spot, I just thought it was beneath you. If you really think the EU is the same as the Soviet Union, we really do live in different universes, and you could have made your point in the way you did in your last post. I've made plenty of stupid and insulting comments on this thread, so I can hardly complain. Let's leave it there, the professionals are doing a good enough job of acting like children.
There's one huge comparable and that's the EU's vampire-like need to take countries' democracies. Imposing laws, undermining their courts, led by a bunch of faceless greysuits. You may not like the point, and for some unknown reason, have taken it personally. I'm sure I have made stupid and insulting posts on this thread too - but this isn't one of them.
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Things must really be falling apart for the 'Remain' campaign, unveiling none other than Gordon Brown to persuade us to remain. It'll be bloody Mandelson next...
It is falling apart, I'm convinced leave will win now. Most people I know are for remain (I confess that I work in the city of London), but the ones that aren't are very angry and definitely for leave. Trouble is everything they are angry about will not be cured by a TV showing article 50 being invoked in parliament. They will still be angry as **** 5, 10 years down the line who are they going to blame instead of the EU? There's nothing tangible for them to see getting better because of leaving.
This might swing a few.
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The problem is no-one in the 'Remain' campaign is providing any positive points to persuade waverers to stay. This evening Osborne is frightening low income workers in less populated areas that they will be the first to suffer from a recession when we leave. What about many EU migrants forcing down pay in many of these areas? Their focus is totally wrong and those who use migrants as the excuse see no positives from the 'Remain' position. The immigration 'problem' is driving the whole campaign and unless 'Remain' can convince the undecided they have the answer they are going to lose...
It was good to hear some sense at last.Things must really be falling apart for the 'Remain' campaign, unveiling none other than Gordon Brown to persuade us to remain. It'll be bloody Mandelson next...
Immigration is the one issue that the Labour leadership have adamantly refused to discuss. They still appear to believe it is a racist topic and complainants are bigots.
It may not be too late, but when I looked at the line up of those going out to spread the "Remain" word among Labour voters - including Mrs Ed Balls, the Eagle sisters and Emily "white vanman" Thornberry - I wonder whether they'll have any more effect than Blair and Brown.
Two elements to be optimistic about for Remain - undecided voters tend to move towards the status quo just before the vote, and polls can be misleading. The result is still wide open imo
It is wide open and difficult to call but exit seems to have all the momentum at the moment. I'd never underestimate the effect of that Sun front page editorial I posted upthread. The odds for exit tumbled overnight. 4 days ago it was 11/4 and now it's 6/5. Whichever way it goes the result will obviously be a lot closer than I and I guess most of us ever would have thought and we're going to have a very divided country in it's wake.
Dipping in and out of this and other online threads it's pretty obvious that the hardcores either way - and I'm one -aren't going to shift and it's now a battle for the don't knows/undecideds.
Out for me for so many reasons. Immigration's the main one although my others may just be confirmation bias.
Immigration. On a national level the figures are insane as Goldhawk has pointed out again and again through this thread. The figures are totally unsustainable and I've yet to see a study that's convinced me of the benefits, economic and/or social of open borders. On a local level I've seen it's effects on the labour and housing market. As a background here's UKIP's share of the vote in my constituency over the last 4 elections,
2001 - 3.6%
2005 - 4.7%
2010 - 5.9%
2015 - 18%
You can of course make of those figures what you will. If you're of the Gordon Brown Labour ilk it's all about racism and agendas from the Sun and The BBC apparently. You may arrogantly and erroneously think that it's people not "understanding" the issues or knowing what's good for them while you do. I won't deny there are some Exiters who would fall into one or more of these categories but the vast. vast majority aren't closet racists, ignorant or ill-informed, rather they know only too well the effects unlimited economic migration and hence an unlimited labour market has had, and continues to have, on their own lives. They have seen the depressive effects on wages and working conditions. They've seen accommodation costs spiraling while social services creak and buckle under the strain. I didn't see Gideon last night but if it's true that he's threatening the working classes with recession then he can save his breath. In places like this and so many others we've been in an ongoing recession for nigh on a decade. Maybe we need to wait a little longer for it to trickle down.
My experience is the opposite of Tootings. I don't work in the City (I'm one of Geoff Hoon's metal bashers) and nobody where I work is voting Remain. A very divided country and, if the opinion polls are to be believed, a very divided continent. Ironic really given the EU's mission of bringing people together in peace and harmony while virgins sat atop unicorns gambol around showering us all with rainbow dust.
That's a bit longer than I thought it would be.
Dipping in and out of this and other online threads it's pretty obvious that the hardcores either way - and I'm one -aren't going to shift and it's now a battle for the don't knows/undecideds.
Out for me for so many reasons. Immigration's the main one although my others may just be confirmation bias.
Immigration. On a national level the figures are insane as Goldhawk has pointed out again and again through this thread. The figures are totally unsustainable and I've yet to see a study that's convinced me of the benefits, economic and/or social of open borders. On a local level I've seen it's effects on the labour and housing market. As a background here's UKIP's share of the vote in my constituency over the last 4 elections,
2001 - 3.6%
2005 - 4.7%
2010 - 5.9%
2015 - 18%
You can of course make of those figures what you will. If you're of the Gordon Brown Labour ilk it's all about racism and agendas from the Sun and The BBC apparently. You may arrogantly and erroneously think that it's people not "understanding" the issues or knowing what's good for them while you do. I won't deny there are some Exiters who would fall into one or more of these categories but the vast. vast majority aren't closet racists, ignorant or ill-informed, rather they know only too well the effects unlimited economic migration and hence an unlimited labour market has had, and continues to have, on their own lives. They have seen the depressive effects on wages and working conditions. They've seen accommodation costs spiraling while social services creak and buckle under the strain. I didn't see Gideon last night but if it's true that he's threatening the working classes with recession then he can save his breath. In places like this and so many others we've been in an ongoing recession for nigh on a decade. Maybe we need to wait a little longer for it to trickle down.
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My experience is the opposite of Tootings. I don't work in the City (I'm one of Geoff Hoon's metal bashers) and nobody where I work is voting Remain. A very divided country and, if the opinion polls are to be believed, a very divided continent. Ironic really given the EU's mission of bringing people together in peace and harmony while virgins sat atop unicorns gambol around showering us all with rainbow dust.
That's a bit longer than I thought it would be.
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Fair comments Telford, my reasons for Remain are because it would directly affect my job and future prospects - so if someoe has the same reasons for choosing leave I respect that.
Successive Tory and labour governments are the reason there aren't enough council houses, the NHS is underfunded, non-EU immigration is sky high and not enough schools are being built. But because of this many people don't see the benefit of being in the EU and so think leaving can't be any worse, I think we all see this.