Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Stroller]

Whether or not the terrible murder of Jo Cox turns out to have some connection to the EU referendum, there seems to me to be little doubt that some of the passions stirred by this campaign have dark undertones. Immigration seems to be the issue that is moving voters towards Leave, fuelled by disgusting stunts like this.

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The people in that poster are not EU citizens of course.

Whichever side wins out, Britain has become a nastier place thanks to this unwanted and unnecessary process.

**** off Cameron, **** off 'sir' Lynton Crosby, **** off Johnson, **** off Farage.

**** all of you.

 

[QPR999]

Whether or not the terrible murder of Jo Cox turns out to have some connection to the EU referendum

Early indications would suggest that this is not the case.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

 

[Stroller]

Early indications would suggest that this is not the case.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/

We'll see, mate. The rest of my post stands.

 

[QPR999]

We'll see, mate. The rest of my post stands.

Yes, of course.

 

[Telford Ranger]

Stroller you are massively out of order bringing Jo Cox into this however you frame it. How sad must you be to use someone's death to point score on the internet?

Which unnecessary process are we talking about? The ongoing, systematic destruction of democracy by an unaccountable elite and their shills or the exercise of democracy?

The "dark tones" in this debate are all coming from one side and it's not [HASHTAG]#brexit[/HASHTAG].

WW3, punishment budgets, Armageddon in Ulster, economic meltdown, houses worth 20p, fluffy pink bunnies murdered in their sleep. Have I missed anything? If you have to go this far to support your argument then there's something wrong with your argument.

None of these things will happen with [HASHTAG]#brexit.[/HASHTAG]

Again unnecessary process? What unnecessary process? Do you think people shouldn't be allowed a vote on their own lives?

Or maybe you do think they should as long as they'll vote in a way you approve.

Or maybe you'll allow them the vote but you think you know better than them anyway.

Pfffffffttttt.........

 

[Supergod00]

Stroller you are massively out of order bringing Jo Cox into this however you frame it. How sad must you be to use someone's death to point score on the internet?

Which unnecessary process are we talking about? The ongoing, systematic destruction of democracy by an unaccountable elite and their shills or the exercise of democracy?

The "dark tones" in this debate are all coming from one side and it's not [HASHTAG]#brexit[/HASHTAG].

WW3, punishment budgets, Armageddon in Ulster, economic meltdown, houses worth 20p, fluffy pink bunnies murdered in their sleep. Have I missed anything? If you have to go this far to support your argument then there's something wrong with your argument.

None of these things will happen with [HASHTAG]#brexit.[/HASHTAG]

Again unnecessary process? What unnecessary process? Do you think people shouldn't be allowed a vote on their own lives?

Or maybe you do think they should as long as they'll vote in a way you approve.

Or maybe you'll allow them the vote but you think you know better than them anyway.

Pfffffffttttt.........

Witness reported that the man shouted words to the effect of 'Britain first' or 'put Britain first', she was a big in campaigner and the fact that all the campaigning has been put on hold tells me that it's very likely linked to the referendum and therefore relevant and reasonable for people to mention on a thread about it!

I'd love to know also how you know that none of those things you mentioned will happen in the event of a Brexit? Baring in mind that just on the back of a few polls the pound has crashed and upto £100 billion has been wiped off the ftse 100!

 

[Telford Ranger]

Witness reported that the man shouted words to the effect of 'Britain first' or 'put Britain first', she was a big in campaigner and the fact that all the campaigning has been put on hold tells me that it's very likely linked to the referendum and therefore relevant and reasonable for people to mention on a thread about it!

I'd love to know also how you know that none of those things you mentioned will happen in the event of a Brexit? Baring in mind that just on the back of a few polls the pound has crashed and upto £100 billion has been wiped off the ftse 100!

Cheers for missing the point re.Jo Cox. It isn't about using a death to point score in an online debate. But hey you've doubled up.

I'd love to know how you know these things will happen on [HASHTAG]#brexit[/HASHTAG]? All those fluffy pink bunnies.

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Currency and stock market fluctuations?

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You think these are new? How old are you?

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They'll recover and reflect our economy, an economy not "shackled to a corpse".

 

[Supergod00]

Cheers for missing the point re.Jo Cox. It isn't about using a death to point score in an online debate. But hey you've doubled up.

How do you know these things will happen on [HASHTAG]#brexit[/HASHTAG]? All those fluffy pink bunnies.

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Currency and stock market fluctuations?

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You think these are new? How old are you?

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They'll recover and reflect our economy, an economy not "shackled to a corpse".

It doesn't surprise me that you'd like to side step the issue of her death in relation to the leave campaign but the fact is (and it may well turn out to be incorrect) that she appears on the face of it to have died due to her support of staying in the eu at the hands of an extremist leave supporter!

I don't know that any of those things will happen but I can look at the facts and see what the most likely senarios will be, it's very very unlikely to effect peace and stability in the region but it is very very likely to have serious consequences for our economy, it's easy to dismiss things as 'fluctuations' but the fact is that investors do not like uncertainty and until any trade deals etc are finalised and the effects of those are seen to be working there will almost certainly be a serious negative effect on our economy and growth, that could easily last 5-10 years, it'll cost jobs and money that will be reflected in any future budget.

 

[Stroller]

Stroller you are massively out of order bringing Jo Cox into this however you frame it. How sad must you be to use someone's death to point score on the internet?

Which unnecessary process are we talking about? The ongoing, systematic destruction of democracy by an unaccountable elite and their shills or the exercise of democracy?

The "dark tones" in this debate are all coming from one side and it's not [HASHTAG]#brexit[/HASHTAG].

WW3, punishment budgets, Armageddon in Ulster, economic meltdown, houses worth 20p, fluffy pink bunnies murdered in their sleep. Have I missed anything? If you have to go this far to support your argument then there's something wrong with your argument.

None of these things will happen with [HASHTAG]#brexit.[/HASHTAG]

Again unnecessary process? What unnecessary process? Do you think people shouldn't be allowed a vote on their own lives?

Or maybe you do think they should as long as they'll vote in a way you approve.

Or maybe you'll allow them the vote but you think you know better than them anyway.

Pfffffffttttt.........

The referendum is an unnecessary process inasmuch as it was way down the list of important issues for voters at the last General Election. The Tories only offered it in the hope of avoiding the leakage of votes to UKIP - not many people actually wanted it. Now we have it, the likes of Farage are free to peddle their rabble-rousing propaganda and all kinds of racist nutters are offered legitimacy.

 

[rangercol]

I said that the racism card would be heavily played in the last few days before the referendum.
This terrible event should not be used for political point scoring imo.
He was a nutcase who in no way represented the millions of people voting to leave.
Strolls I would have expected better from you.

 

[Stroller]

I said that the racism card would be heavily played in the last few days before the referendum.
This terrible event should not be used for political point scoring imo.
He was a nutcase who in no way represented the millions of people voting to leave.
Strolls I would have expected better from you.

Is the Farage poster not racist, Col?

 

[rangercol]

Is the Farage poster not racist, Col?

Racist? Not in my opinion.
Over the top? Maybe.

 

[colognehornet]

I said that the racism card would be heavily played in the last few days before the referendum.
This terrible event should not be used for political point scoring imo.
He was a nutcase who in no way represented the millions of people voting to leave.
Strolls I would have expected better from you.

He does not represent the majority of leave voters but.....the combination of psychic illness together with daily doses of xenophobic propaganda can only have one result. Can you imagine if the murderer had shouted Allah Akbar before killing someone - then, there would have been no doubts in anyones mind that it was political (even if he was mad), and how the Sun would have loved that.

 

[rangercol]

He does not represent the majority of leave voters but.....the combination of psychic illness together with daily doses of xenophobic propaganda can only have one result. Can you imagine if the murderer had shouted Allah Akbar before killing someone - then, there would have been no doubts in anyones mind that it was political (even if he was mad), and how the Sun would have loved that.

If he had been an Islamic extremist it would have been religious, not political.
There have been daily doses of propaganda from the remain camp, including a threat to cut our pensions, put up our taxes and an imminent threat of world war 3!!

How many more of you are going to come out with this racist slur against those of us who want to put our Country first? (I absolutely knew this would happen over the next few days).

 

[colognehornet]

If he had been an Islamic extremist it would have been religious, not political.
There have been daily doses of propaganda from the remain camp, including a threat to cut our pensions, put up our taxes and an imminent threat of world war 3!!

How many more of you are going to come out with this racist slur against those of us who want to put our Country first? (I absolutely knew this would happen over the next few days).

It is perhaps inevitable that the accusation of racism will come up Col, precisely because the Brexit campaign have turned the immigration issue into their most important theme. Precisely because they are trying to convince us that the 600,000 or so Poles living in Britain represent the collapse of our entire social fabric. Because their entire argument relies upon the creation of a nationalistic, jingoistic, flag waving mood in the country. How can a movement which would cast Britain adrift from the biggest trading block in the World, possibly even divide Britain itself, claim to be putting Britain first ?

 

[rangercol]

It is perhaps inevitable that the accusation of racism will come up Col, precisely because the Brexit campaign have turned the immigration issue into their most important theme. Precisely because they are trying to convince us that the 600,000 or so Poles living in Britain represent the collapse of our entire social fabric. Because their entire argument relies upon the creation of a nationalistic, jingoistic, flag waving mood in the country. How can a movement which would cast Britain adrift from the biggest trading block in the World, possibly even divide Britain itself, claim to be putting Britain first ?

This is tosh.

No one is denigrating the positive effects of controlled immigration. Those with money want us to remain as they are not the ones effected by the pressures put on local services etc by uncontrolled immigration. Those with money drone on about the free movement of people and how little Harriet and Tristrum won't be able to go around the Continent on their gap year etc etc. Ordinary people worry whether they can get their kids into their local school or get to see their doctor within two weeks, or how their local community has changed beyond all recognition.
These genuine concerns are regularly sneered at by the liberal elite.

Even if we only control those coming from the EU we will reduce that influx by half. Wanting to govern ourselves and be an independent Country is not jingoistic. Pride in one's own Country is not a bad thing, but unless one possesses that pride it cannot be understood.
The EU is a failing experiment and is one of the worst performing trade blocks in the World, declining month on month.
Companies like BMW will still want to trade with us, especially as we are their second biggest customer.
The EU is an undemocratic, political dinosaur which is an elitist club, casting millions of ordinary Europeans onto the unemployment scrap-heap.

Remain are desperate and will cry "racism" from now till Thursday.

 

[TheBigDipper]

How many more of you are going to come out with this racist slur against those of us who want to put our Country first? (I absolutely knew this would happen over the next few days).

I really wanted to stay away from this thread, I really did, coz I still think we're all just shouting at each other and not listening, but...

Within the remit of this referendum, I don't care if someone has racist views and that is a factor in their decision. I have friends who tell me to my face that they are racist. I respect them and I still want to stay friends with them, it's just a part of who they are, not everything about them. I'd feel they were being honest if they told me "I just don't like foreigners, and that's why I'm voting Out".

I find it a shame that some "Leave" people use the claim that they are the true British patriots as if that were a rational justification of their decision. They infer that those who wish to "Remain" are somehow undermining the country. The recession that will occur if we leave would be totally self inflicted. The effects will be catastrophic on many British people.

I am proud to be British (and European, and English, and a Londoner). I don't think crippling it by leaving the EU is "putting our Country first", sorry. It won't take much of a drop in GDP and tax revenues for us to start closing hospitals (or worse, use it as justification for selling them to private companies who will choose to run the profitable services and still require the public purse to pick up the unprofitable ones). Now, I know I'll get the response that "people like me" are "selling the country short". That is not refuting my point of view. That just isn't born out by informed opinion. They aren't all telling lies about the negative effects of "Leave" just to sway your vote.

Just for a moment, consider that voting "Leave" and bringing on the recession might be selling the country short instead.

Don't like the effects on public services and jobs caused by immigration? Put pressure on the UK government to deal with it rather than letting them shrug their shoulders and say "EU made me...".

Don't like the way the EU works? Get engaged with changing it from within. There's never been a better climate for doing so.

 

[rangercol]

I really wanted to stay away from this thread, I really did, coz I still think we're all just shouting at each other and not listening, but...

Within the remit of this referendum, I don't care if someone has racist views and that is a factor in their decision. I have friends who tell me to my face that they are racist. I respect them and I still want to stay friends with them, it's just a part of who they are, not everything about them. I'd feel they were being honest if they told me "I just don't like foreigners, and that's why I'm voting Out".

I find it a shame that some "Leave" people use the claim that they are the true British patriots as if that were a rational justification of their decision. They infer that those who wish to "Remain" are somehow undermining the country. The recession that will occur if we leave would be totally self inflicted. The effects will be catastrophic on many British people.

I am proud to be British (and European, and English, and a Londoner). I don't think crippling it by leaving the EU is "putting our Country first", sorry. It won't take much of a drop in GDP and tax revenues for us to start closing hospitals (or worse, use it as justification for selling them to private companies who will choose to run the profitable services and still require the public purse to pick up the unprofitable ones). Now, I know I'll get the response that "people like me" are "selling the country short". That is not refuting my point of view. That just isn't born out by informed opinion. They aren't all telling lies about the negative effects of "Leave" just to sway your vote.

Just for a moment, consider that voting "Leave" and bringing on the recession might be selling the country short instead.

Don't like the effects on public services and jobs caused by immigration? Put pressure on the UK government to deal with it rather than letting them shrug their shoulders and say "EU made me...".

Don't like the way the EU works? Get engaged with changing it from within. There's never been a better climate for doing so.

You are right in that we all keep on going around in circles, so I may try to keep out of this now till the vote.

On your points I would say this:
You are falling into the same trap as many others, by believing that the Country will fall apart if we leave. You even say that "hospitals will close". Most of those "experts" who urge us to stay have been wrong on many, many previous occasions, including the Euro and the exchange rate mechanism.
Yes, the pound is falling through uncertainty, but it will recover. It always has. A weaker pound can also help some businesses. Lower house prices would also be a good thing.

Not wanting too many immigrants because of the fear of over-crowding essential services IS NOT RACIST.
My main point is independence and sovereignty, but immigration is also part of it for me.

Lastly, there is no way we can effect the EU or their final end-game of a united states of Europe. Look how pathetic Cameron's recent negotiations were. Vote to remain and our masters will take that as our approval of everything they want to do.

 

[colognehornet]

You are right in that we all keep on going around in circles, so I may try to keep out of this now till the vote.

On your points I would say this:
You are falling into the same trap as many others, by believing that the Country will fall apart if we leave. You even say that "hospitals will close". Most of those "experts" who urge us to stay have been wrong on many, many previous occasions, including the Euro and the exchange rate mechanism.
Yes, the pound is falling through uncertainty, but it will recover. It always has. A weaker pound can also help some businesses. Lower house prices would also be a good thing.

Not wanting too many immigrants because of the fear of over-crowding essential services IS NOT RACIST.
My main point is independence and sovereignty, but immigration is also part of it for me.

Lastly, there is no way we can effect the EU or their final end-game of a united states of Europe. Look how pathetic Cameron's recent negotiations were. Vote to remain and our masters will take that as our approval of everything they want to do.

why all this talk of 'our European masters' ? How is it that the same people who are portraying Britain as a 7 stone weakling having sand kicked in his face are, on the other side, saying how dynamic we are as a nation ? The EU. sustains millions of jobs in the UK. We have greater influence in the World through being a part of it, 25% of all money given out for research in the EU. goes to Britain, it gives us better environmental rules and workers rights, we have better laws on consumer protection, and, even though this has gone down in recent years, the GDP. of the EU. last year was higher than that of the USA. - the EU. is also better at redistributing the proceeds from that wealth than the USA is. How is it possible to say that we are not capable of standing up for our interests within the EU. yet we would be able to negotiate alone with China or the USA. to our interest. Coming out of the EU. would lead to a loss of sovereignty, and a loss of independence.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Witness reported that the man shouted words to the effect of 'Britain first' or 'put Britain first', she was a big in campaigner and the fact that all the campaigning has been put on hold tells me that it's very likely linked to the referendum and therefore relevant and reasonable for people to mention on a thread about it!

I'd love to know also how you know that none of those things you mentioned will happen in the event of a Brexit? Baring in mind that just on the back of a few polls the pound has crashed and upto £100 billion has been wiped off the ftse 100!

This is nonsense. There are lots of Labour MP's that are big IN campaigners, and there are not even recorded threats against any MP for the stance they have taken on the referendum.

If Cox's senseless killing has anything to do with immigration, it's likely to be her stance on bringing in more refugees from Syria. Ridiculous motive, but we're dealing with a killer that has a history of mental health problems