Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
rangercol said:
CNN just reported that the crossing in Southern Egypt remains closed.
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As I understand its open Col and admitting dual-nationals only, closed to a mass influx definitely

'Egypt signaled a measure of willingness on October 12 for its border with the Gaza Strip to become an outlet for Gaza residents seeking refuge. As fighting raged into a sixth day and Israel’s retaliatory strikes for the weekend massacre by Hamas caused mass displacement among Palestinians, the Foreign Ministry in Cairo said it was preparing to use the Rafah crossing on the Egypt-Gaza border to bring in aid.

There was no immediate sign, however, that Egypt would reverse its long-standing reluctance to admit Palestinians en masse from Gaza into its Sinai peninsula. For now, Egyptian officials said aid shipments from Qatar and Jordan will land in Sinai’s Al Arish International Airport, with their cargo awaiting a humanitarian corridor into Gaza for delivery. Israel has not yet formally offered to open up such a corridor, however.

Despite explosions on the Gazan side of Rafah, apparently from Israeli munitions, the crossing remained open for travelers, Egypt said. It admits them under strict quotas and with pre-approval by Cairo.'
 
WBA2_QPR3 said:
I don't think it was a strong speech Col, it was a speech the US had to make. And yes the US might not be ****ing around but neither are Iran and their proxies, that's where I feel the US are failing in this, they need to de-escalate the situation or risk a regional conflict. Its only the US that has the power to do that. 2.3m people in Gaza are not expendable due to the terrorist actions of Hamas, surely anyone can see that
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In what way do you think the US could de-escalate the situation?
They were always going to support Israel and now that 1500 Israelis have been wiped out by terrorists, all the major Western forces have to support them too.
I agree that Gaza is going to see unbelievable horror now, but it was inevitable as soon as the Hamas attack started.
 
WBA2_QPR3 said:
As I understand its open Col and admitting dual-nationals only, closed to a mass influx definitely

'Egypt signaled a measure of willingness on October 12 for its border with the Gaza Strip to become an outlet for Gaza residents seeking refuge. As fighting raged into a sixth day and Israel’s retaliatory strikes for the weekend massacre by Hamas caused mass displacement among Palestinians, the Foreign Ministry in Cairo said it was preparing to use the Rafah crossing on the Egypt-Gaza border to bring in aid.

There was no immediate sign, however, that Egypt would reverse its long-standing reluctance to admit Palestinians en masse from Gaza into its Sinai peninsula. For now, Egyptian officials said aid shipments from Qatar and Jordan will land in Sinai’s Al Arish International Airport, with their cargo awaiting a humanitarian corridor into Gaza for delivery. Israel has not yet formally offered to open up such a corridor, however.

Despite explosions on the Gazan side of Rafah, apparently from Israeli munitions, the crossing remained open for travelers, Egypt said. It admits them under strict quotas and with pre-approval by Cairo.'
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There seem to be continuing conflicting reports on this.
 
Bwood_Ranger said:
I think if it’s a choice of wiping out the 2.3m along with Hamas or have another few days like the last few then yeah probably. Obviously in an ideal world there’s no civilian casualties but that’s not possible.
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As Nuts says this is very sad. I don’t know you well but we’ve had a couple of pints together and I’m sure you are an intelligent and reasonable man. If this view is reflected amongst most of the British Jewish population, or the worldwide Jewish population, then this could get much worse very quickly. No matter how aggrieved or threatened you may feel, sometimes restraint is the only rational option.
Bwood_Ranger said:
I’m well aware what many (a majority probably) think of Israel and that reputation is unlikely to improve any time soon but I think it’s gone well beyond caring about PR.
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On the contrary I think the Israeli PR/propaganda is really delivering for them. Just about every major Western leader offering unqualified support and a get out of jail free card for any and all actions taken. All the news outlets telling the story from a heavily Israeli perspective (admittedly it’s hard to report from Gaza with the missiles raining down), I’m sure there will be a steady stream of atrocity pictures released.

Meanwhile it’s illegal to mention Hamas here apparently and pro Palestinian protests are being banned across Europe. Your pal Braverman is trying to get pro Palestinian chants defined as anti semitic and thus illegal.

But as more pictures emerge from Gaza you might well be right.
 
sb_73 said:
As Nuts says this is very sad. I don’t know you well but we’ve had a couple of pints together and I’m sure you are an intelligent and reasonable man. If this view is reflected amongst most of the British Jewish population, or the worldwide Jewish population, then this could get much worse very quickly. No matter how aggrieved or threatened you may feel, sometimes restraint is the only rational option.

On the contrary I think the Israeli PR/propaganda is really delivering for them. Just about every major Western leader offering unqualified support and a get out of jail free card for any and all actions taken. All the news outlets telling the story from a heavily Israeli perspective (admittedly it’s hard to report from Gaza with the missiles raining down), I’m sure there will be a steady stream of atrocity pictures released.

Meanwhile it’s illegal to mention Hamas here apparently and pro Palestinian protests are being banned across Europe. Your pal Braverman is trying to get pro Palestinian chants defined as anti semitic and thus illegal.

But as more pictures emerge from Gaza you might well be right.
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I disagree with banning protest but it’s a tricky one. I’d be more than happy for whoever wants to to protest peacefully for Palestine, Israel or just for peace in general but it’s sadly unrealistic. Any march for Palestine is going to have a sizeable minority of blatant anti-semitism. People are already chanting “**** the Jews, rape their daughters” etc. on loudspeakers across Europe but I still think people should have a right to protest for what they believe in and if that spills over into criminality then police should be on hand to deal with that, as unrealistic as that may be. I very much doubt you’ll find British Jews marching and chanting something similar though. As you know I’ve no time for Braverman and I think a lot of Tories/right wingers are jumping on the Israel bandwagon for their own agendas (while many genuinely believe in the cause). I hate that it’s become a de facto left v right issue in general at least here.

I’ve tried to look at the whole thing as neutrally as possible and it’s my view, though obviously I’ve got a dog in the fight and will be biased as much as I try not to be. Maybe that will change if we see scenes on the Palestinian side like we have the Israeli’s this week but probably not.

I’m not personally threatened. I’m not visibly jewish, don’t live in a jewish area etc. and if I witness anti-semitism around my area I’m comfortable confronting that. But I’d estimate most Jews in the UK are feeling threatened. It’s a small community mostly in a few small clusters and I don’t have a lot of faith in the authorities to stop it getting violent there.

On the bright side I’m in Sofia for the weekend and have five hours to kill until my mates arrive. Already had a banging lunch for next to nothing and I’ve got a gym/sauna in the hotel so my one-man defence of Brighton’s synagogues can wait until Monday.
 
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Bwood_Ranger said:
I disagree with banning protest but it’s a tricky one. I’d be more than happy for whoever wants to to protest peacefully for Palestine, Israel or just for peace in general but it’s sadly unrealistic. Any march for Palestine is going to have a sizeable minority of blatant anti-semitism. People are already chanting “**** the Jews, rape their daughters” etc. on loudspeakers across Europe but I still think people should have a right to protest for what they believe in and if that spills over into criminality then police should be on hand to deal with that, as unrealistic as that may be. I very much doubt you’ll find British Jews marching and chanting something similar though. As you know I’ve no time for Braverman and I think a lot of Tories/right wingers are jumping on the Israel bandwagon for their own agendas (while many genuinely believe in the cause). I hate that it’s become a de facto left v right issue in general at least here.

I’ve tried to look at the whole thing as neutrally as possible and it’s my view, though obviously I’ve got a dog in the fight and will be biased as much as I try not to be. Maybe that will change if we see scenes on the Palestinian side like we have the Israeli’s this week but probably not.

I’m not personally threatened. I’m not visibly jewish, don’t live in a jewish area etc. and if I witness anti-semitism around my area I’m comfortable confronting that. But I’d estimate most Jews in the UK are feeling threatened. It’s a small community mostly in a few small clusters and I don’t have a lot of faith in the authorities to stop it getting violent there.

On the bright side I’m in Sofia for the weekend and have five hours to kill until my mates arrive. Already had a banging lunch for next to nothing and I’ve got a gym/sauna in the hotel so my one-man defence of Brighton’s synagogues can wait until Monday.
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Enjoy Bulgaria mate.

I’m very aware that some genuine anti semitism lurks under the anti Israel/anti Zionist mask of some protesters. But not all of them. Lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there too.
 
I accept and agree with a lot of the criticism of Israel concerning the Palestinians. I think the Israelis have, on balance, been more at fault and the Palestinians have been treated appallingly in recent history.
But let's not kid ourselves that all Palestinians have been wanting peace all this time. It is a deep and incredibly complex situation and mutual hatred is unfortunately ingrained on both sides.
And yet......

Jewish schools are being closed for safety reasons.
Jewish people are being advised to not visibly reveal that they're Jewish for fear of attack.
People were on the streets celebrating the sickening Hamas attack.
In Europe, antisemitic marches are taking place.
1500 Israelis have been brutally massacred and over 100 taken hostage.
A father wept as he explained that he was relieved to hear that his 8 year old daughter had been killed and not taken prisoner by Hamas, as that would be "so much worse than death".
Old people, women, children and babies have been taken from their homes and shot, beheaded and slaughtered in terrible ways.
Jews will always feel threatened, attacked and defensive. Who can blame them given their history?

And yet.....and yet.......

Middle class virtue signallers continue to shout about the plight of the Palestinians (the goodies) and the cruelty and inhumanity of the Israelis (the baddies).
This isn’t the time.
This is the time to stand by the people who have been attacked by State funded terrorists. If that were my little girl, I'd want my Country to smash back in the strongest way possible.
Hamas were elected by Palestinians in 2006.
Be careful what you wish for.

Edit: I should add that this isn’t aimed at anyone on here.
 
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I think having a minute's silence tonight is very risky. I can see it being hijacked one way or another - it’s an opportunity for someone to make a protest or statement in front of the press (and 90,000 people)
 
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Hezbollah addressed a pro Palestinian rally today in Beirut. Think their involvement is imminent TBH. UNIFIl troops on the border on red alert.
 
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QPRNUTS said:
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Hezbollah addressed a pro Palestinian rally today in Beirut. Think their involvement is imminent TBH. UNIFIl troops on the border on red alert.
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This thing is threatening to spread out.
All those fears of massive conflict in the middle east could be being realised.
 
It seems to me there is some comparison between the Palestinians, and Germans in the first half of last century.

Both countries were outraged at losing territory after war (WW1)

Both democratically elected an extreme government (Nazis)

Both extreme governments rejected democracy and became dictatorships

In both, the dictators deliberately brought about another war

In both, it was the civilians in the dictatorship that suffered as a result
 
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Blinken took a pasting at the Doha news conference, struggling to justify humanitarian grounds to order 1.1m people to move through a war zone in 24hours, he's had a tough sell these past 2 days

Just seen that the Israeli’s have blown up a car carrying Reuters and Al Jazeera journalists in South Lebanon with a tank strike - nerves are on edge on the northern border

I can't see the Leb army or UNIFIL being able to do anything about it
 
rangercol said:
This thing is threatening to spread out.
All those fears of massive conflict in the middle east could be being realised.
Click to expand...

A ground invasion of Gaza a surefire way to get that started Col, the Americans look very uneasy

Blinken was directly challenged that the response has been over emotional with no thought to 'what next?'

"The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has called for the immediate release of hostages taken by Hamas during the attacks on Israel last weekend, but said those attacks “cannot in turn justify the limitless destruction of Gaza”

No winners here except Iran
 
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rangercol said:
I accept and agree with a lot of the criticism of Israel concerning the Palestinians. I think the Israelis have, on balance, been more at fault and the Palestinians have been treated appallingly in recent history.
But let's not kid ourselves that all Palestinians have been wanting peace all this time. It is a deep and incredibly complex situation and mutual hatred is unfortunately ingrained on both sides.
And yet......

Jewish schools are being closed for safety reasons.
Jewish people are being advised to not visibly reveal that they're Jewish for fear of attack.
People were on the streets celebrating the sickening Hamas attack.
In Europe, antisemitic marches are taking place.
1500 Israelis have been brutally massacred and over 100 taken hostage.
A father wept as he explained that he was relieved to hear that his 8 year old daughter had been killed and not taken prisoner by Hamas, as that would be "so much worse than death".
Old people, women, children and babies have been taken from their homes and shot, beheaded and slaughtered in terrible ways.
Jews will always feel threatened, attacked and defensive. Who can blame them given their history?

And yet.....and yet.......

Middle class virtue signallers continue to shout about the plight of the Palestinians (the goodies) and the cruelty and inhumanity of the Israelis (the baddies).
This isn’t the time.
This is the time to stand by the people who have been attacked by State funded terrorists. If that were my little girl, I'd want my Country to smash back in the strongest way possible.
Hamas were elected by Palestinians in 2006.
Be careful what you wish for.

Edit: I should add that this isn’t aimed at anyone on here.
Click to expand...

No offence taken Col if your post was referring to me.

We have to understand things here are not black and white, everything is a shade of grey. No one party involved in this is 'clean' least of all the Americans who currently don't have an Ambassador in the following countries - Egypt Kuwait Oman UAE Lebanon Jordan and quite unbelievably, Israel, due to the US Government impasse.
 
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