Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Goldhawk-Road said:
Only if it is a war crime to temporily move civilians from an area for their own safety while terrorists are hunted down. Highly doubtful, but of course if Israel's response is too harsh at any stage in the future, then at the least, outside nations will have a duty not to encourage it.
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Credible reports that the Israelis have fired missiles at one of the escape routes which they designated for the Palestinians to move south, with multiple casualties. Doubtless it will be a ‘mistake’, or that Hamas individuals were targeted, would that count as a war crime?

If confirmed (BBC saying that women and children killed) will just rack the tension up to another level.

On reflection wouldn’t the Hamas ****ers flee south with the civilians? Why would they just wait for the Israelis to do a scorched earth operation on north Gaza, justified by saying civilians had been given the chance to leave so that anyone who remained was a terrorist?

I’d love Hamas to be utterly destroyed, and be replaced with people who can be negotiated with, but somehow doubt this will be the result long term.
 
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sb_73 said:
Credible reports that the Israelis have fired missiles at one of the escape routes which they designated for the Palestinians to move south, with multiple casualties. Doubtless it will be a ‘mistake’, or that Hamas individuals were targeted, would that count as a war crime?

If confirmed (BBC saying that women and children killed) will just rack the tension up to another level.

On reflection wouldn’t the Hamas ****ers flee south with the civilians? Why would they just wait for the Israelis to do a scorched earth operation on north Gaza, justified by saying civilians had been given the chance to leave so that anyone who remained was a terrorist?

I’d love Hamas to be utterly destroyed, and be replaced with people who can be negotiated with, but somehow doubt this will be the result long term.
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You’ll miss the target occasionally. Probably had Dykes behind the rocket launcher.
 
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sb_73 said:
Credible reports that the Israelis have fired missiles at one of the escape routes which they designated for the Palestinians to move south, with multiple casualties. Doubtless it will be a ‘mistake’, or that Hamas individuals were targeted, would that count as a war crime?

If confirmed (BBC saying that women and children killed) will just rack the tension up to another level.

On reflection wouldn’t the Hamas ****ers flee south with the civilians? Why would they just wait for the Israelis to do a scorched earth operation on north Gaza, justified by saying civilians had been given the chance to leave so that anyone who remained was a terrorist?

I’d love Hamas to be utterly destroyed, and be replaced with people who can be negotiated with, but somehow doubt this will be the result long term.
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It would be a war crime if intentional, and probably if recklessly. But difficult if not impossible to prove.

I understood Israel's objection to safe areas in Egypt was the possibility that Hamas may infiltrate civilians and escape. I assume if Israel has agreed to it, there were conditions. Some sort of eventual vetting may be?
 
sb_73 said:
Credible reports that the Israelis have fired missiles at one of the escape routes which they designated for the Palestinians to move south, with multiple casualties. Doubtless it will be a ‘mistake’, or that Hamas individuals were targeted, would that count as a war crime?

If confirmed (BBC saying that women and children killed) will just rack the tension up to another level.

On reflection wouldn’t the Hamas ****ers flee south with the civilians? Why would they just wait for the Israelis to do a scorched earth operation on north Gaza, justified by saying civilians had been given the chance to leave so that anyone who remained was a terrorist?

I’d love Hamas to be utterly destroyed, and be replaced with people who can be negotiated with, but somehow doubt this will be the result long term.
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Maybe the Palestinians will vote for people who can be negotiated with next time.
 
QPRNUTS said:
Moot point mate. The Israelis had 70 years to negotiate and instead took the land inch by inch. Hamas is only there because the general population felt they had no other option. Israel don’t negotiate
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Don't disagree, although there have been US led talks with both sides that have come close to am agreement. Israel have certainly become more hard-line in recent times.
I was responding to Stan's point about the Palestinians needing representatives that could be negotiated with.
 
rangercol said:
Don't disagree, although there have been US led talks with both sides that have come close to am agreement. Israel have certainly become more hard-line in recent times.
I was responding to Stan's point about the Palestinians needing representatives that could be negotiated with.
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Hamas won the election in 2006, and later ejected Fatah (the opposition) from Gaza to the West Bank. There hasn't been an election since in Gaza, and only the government in the West Bank is officially recognised by the rest of the world. There are Palestinians in the West Bank who want to negotiate...in fact there were moderate members of Hamas back in 2006 that wanted to negotiate with Israel, but then an Israeli soldier was kidnapped in Gaza and it all kicked off again...

From Wiki...

After the kidnap of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit on 25 June 2006, Israel launched a series of raids into Gaza and the West Bank. Israel destroyed civilian infrastructure and arrested dozens of Hamas supporters, including elected cabinet ministers and members of the PLC. On 28 June overnight, the army invaded Gaza and performed airstrikes, bombing infrastructure such as bridges and an electricity station. On 29 June, the IDF detained from the West Bank 8 ministers and 26 PLC members in addition to many other political leaders.[19][41] By August 2006, Israel had arrested 49 senior Hamas officials, all from the West Bank, including 33 parliamentarians, "because technically they were members of a terrorist organisation although they may not be involved in terrorist acts themselves". Most of the Hamas detainees were moderate members from the West Bank who had been calling on the Gaza leadership to recognise Israel and make the party more acceptable to the international community. Hamas has accused Israel of trying to destroy the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority
trying to destroy the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority.[42]

With the formation of the government, the Quartet set three conditions for the Hamas-led government: recognition of the agreements signed between Israel and the PLO, recognition of Israel and renunciation of support for terrorism. Hamas refused these conditions.
 
Uber_Hoop said:
https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.c...-world-that-is-blamed-for-being-attacked.html

Yeah, but it’s Hitchens.
Yeah, it’s “The Fail”
Yeah, but it’s Israel
Yeah, but no, but…
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Just taken the time to read this and am dismayed by it. Totally unbalanced!!!

1. The creation of an Israeli state was of course necessary. To make it so small
and place it right in the middle of the Middle East was ludicrous to say the least.

2. We won’t get into the semantics of who was there first other than to say a long time ago both Arabs and Jews coexisted in this area. Notably, it was called Palestine. Who in their right mind thought they could just ‘disappear’ what was at least 50%+ of the population.

3. Western media has consistently dumbed down or not shown 99% of the atrocities in the region. The world doesn’t care.

4. Israel does not negotiate. People need to understand that. It does not negotiate. So the Palestinian’s had everything taken off them, penned in like animals. No human rights and nobody listening to them. It wasn’t always like this but decades of world silence has allowed the likes of Hamas to flourish.

5. The US are the only ones with the ability to influence Israel. They fund their military. They have swept this problem under the table. They should hang their heads in shame.

6. A very good point raised was that of fellow Arab/Muslim indifference. I mentioned a few days ago that nobody (NOBODY) cares about the Palestinian’s. Iran uses them as their proxy. The 2 state solution won’t work. One visit to Israel and you will see that in 2 minutes. It’s too small. Half of tiny is untenable. That’s part of the reason why Isreal drags its feet in negotiations and the Palestinian’s become more and more frustrated. The ONLY way this can be resolved is by the creation of 2 new states in the region with other countries giving land. That also won’t work as Arab countries would be seen to have contributed to the creation of an Israeli state.

7. I am dismayed by the final paragraph where the author suggests that the best way to peace is by backing Israel, WTF…really!!!
The best way to find peace is not by allowing Israel to level Gaza, kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians and force them into depravity. There’s nowhere to go inside Gaza. Where does the Israeli Govt expect 2 million people to go to once Gaza is levelled? The way forward for peace is to ensure this doesn’t happen again by finally finding a workable solution.But the US are incapable of this.
 
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QPRNUTS said:
Moot point mate. The Israelis had 70 years to negotiate and instead took the land inch by inch. Hamas is only there because the general population felt they had no other option. Israel don’t negotiate
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The current Israel government may not negotiate, but Rabin was prepared to in the 1990's, and was assassinated by a Jewish extremist as a result. And there's the problem on both sides. There are moderates, and there are extreme religious fundamentalists, Jewish and Muslim. And when the fundamentalists feel their voice isn't loud enough, their guns and bombs speak for them
 
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Goldhawk-Road said:
The current Israel government may not negotiate, but Rabin was prepared to in the 1990's, and was assassinated by a Jewish extremist as a result. And there's the problem on both sides. There are moderates, and there are extreme religious fundamentalists, Jewish and Muslim. And when the fundamentalists feel their voice isn't loud enough, their guns and bombs speak for them
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Perfectly summed up
 
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Really struggling to get my head around what now looks like the impending ground invasion. No military would fight FIBUA (Fighting in built up areas) if possible. It’s highly attritional. Doing this will almost certainly;
* open up a second front with Hezbollah
* kick off the West Bank
* Possibly lead to increased tension with Iran as a minimum if not the need for preemptive strikes as per what’s happening in Syria.
* Increased likelihood of more countries turning against their actions and gaining sympathy for the Palestinian’s
* Massive Israeli casualties

a ground invasion doesn’t make sense especially when I don’t see the same build up of troops along the Lebanese border. Somethings not adding up.

Are Israel playing the bluff, showing their strength to get what they need from the US/Arab League talks?
 
QPRNUTS said:
Really struggling to get my head around what now looks like the impending ground invasion. No military would fight FIBUA (Fighting in built up areas) if possible. It’s highly attritional. Doing this will almost certainly;
* open up a second front with Hezbollah
* kick off the West Bank
* Possibly lead to increased tension with Iran as a minimum if not the need for preemptive strikes as per what’s happening in Syria.
* Increased likelihood of more countries turning against their actions and gaining sympathy for the Palestinian’s
* Massive Israeli casualties

a ground invasion doesn’t make sense especially when I don’t see the same build up of troops along the Lebanese border. Somethings not adding up.

Are Israel playing the bluff, showing their strength to get what they need from the US/Arab League talks?
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His other Q&A videos are very informative on the issue, but here he breaks down why Hezbollah may not get involved, and why Israel may take the fight to them instead...
 
Steelmonkey said:
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His other Q&A videos are very informative on the issue, but here he breaks down why Hezbollah may not get involved, and why Israel may take the fight to them instead...
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Yea, interesting.
The Israeli’s aren’t publicly massing an army yet in the north and although tensions are rising, Hezbollah are relatively quiet. As I suggested, something isn’t quite right. Maybe Israel will try sort Gaza first. Syria are the unknown in this. Traditionally their rhetoric and postering would be huge but maybe they are suffering huge war fatigue from the last 10 years. Israel has bombed their 2 main airports twice in the last week without any comment or reply from Assad!!!
 
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