Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

I suspect to a degree the coverage cemented my choice, I’d have hated chucking my lot in with all them, which at times can be cutting off my nose to spite my face

I’ve always appreciated your and a proportion of the leave vote had **** all to do with all that bollocks, it would have annoyed the **** out of me having Farage and the likes hijacking the real issues you wanted heard.

The one thing I’ll always have to remind you though, is you voted the same way as Mogg, you bloody elitist … and your vote helped that **** make millions

I wouldn’t say it annoyed me....I just saw it as a fact of life and a means to an end. The Left Wing/Worker led cause for Brexit was always going to be ignored by both sides....and it suited both sides to ignore it.
To be honest, in politics, you sometimes have to keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.......and now the common cause has been achieved, the real battle can begin. Though to be fair, the battle against the Tories is all but won.....

 

[Willhoops]

I wouldn’t say it annoyed me....I just saw it as a fact of life and a means to an end. The Left Wing/Worker led cause for Brexit was always going to be ignored by both sides....and it suited both sides to ignore it.
To be honest, in politics, you sometimes have to keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.......and now the common cause has been achieved, the real battle can begin. Though to be fair, the battle against the Tories is all but won.....

For now, the problem is after Labour pick up an absolute **** show it’s going to be difficult to see positive results for the masses. If they can cut back on ****s getting richer off the public purse through very questionable methods at best and start to redirect those funds into public services and infrastructure we are heading in the right direction.

if he’s still about I’ll find it interesting seeing what direction Starmer takes, I’m not convinced, although it won’t matter how good a job he’s doing certain people and elements of the media will do a hatchet job, politics really has been dragged to the level of reality tv.

 

[Staines R's]

For now, the problem is after Labour pick up an absolute **** show it’s going to be difficult to see positive results for the masses. If they can cut back on ****s getting richer off the public purse through very questionable methods at best and start to redirect those funds into public services and infrastructure we are heading in the right direction.

if he’s still about I’ll find it interesting seeing what direction Starmer takes, I’m not convinced, although it won’t matter how good a job he’s doing certain people and elements of the media will do a hatchet job, politics really has been dragged to the level of reality tv.

I’m definitely not convinced that Labour in its current guise is the real answer, but then again, if it means that the country has moved further to my way of thinking, then I’d probably take that right now. I’ll give them a go.....but sadly after what happened with Blair, I feel I might be disappointed.

 

[Willhoops]

I’m definitely not convinced that Labour in its current guise is the real answer, but then again, if it means that the country has moved further to my way of thinking, then I’d probably take that right now. I’ll give them a go.....but sadly after what happened with Blair, I feel I might be disappointed.

Spot on, the issue being is a jump too far away from where we are politically is it’s way too much for both media and those they influence. So for me that’s why Labour place themselves where they do. Like you I’m sure it’ll be a disappointment… but have to realise it’s probably as far away from the current lot we have any chance of getting elected. One or two steps isn’t enough but it’s better than nothing.

 

[qprbeth]

I’m definitely not convinced that Labour in its current guise is the real answer, but then again, if it means that the country has moved further to my way of thinking, then I’d probably take that right now. I’ll give them a go.....but sadly after what happened with Blair, I feel I might be disappointed.

My analogy on this is simple.
Out on a Saturday night, miles from home and after midnight, a bus turns up. It is going pretty close to your home, say to the next village........Do you take it, or wait and hope another one comes along and that it takes you to your doorstep.

You take the one that is going in roughly the right direction...better than staying where you are or going on a bus that goes nowhere near where you want to go.

 

[bobmid]

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What a tool

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

This is worrying...

Joe Wallen
India’s war on Christians

• • 24 December 2022, 6:00am
  You must log in or register to see images
  
  Credit: Getty images
• Christmas is usually Nayomi Gracy’s favourite time of year. But this year, Gracy is feeling more fearful than cheerful. Right-wing Hindu groups have recently led a succession of violent attacks against her Christian community in the southern Indian state of Karnata
  
  When she attends church in her home city of Bangalore on Christmas Day, the congregation will be guarded by armed police. ‘It is a mental torture. They say we cannot go to church or they will kill us but the police have promised to protect us and to help us,’ said Gracy.
  
  India’s historic Christian community dates back to 52AD. It is believed the Apostle Thomas, better known as Doubting Thomas, arrived in the southern India state of Kerala and baptised a small group of residents.
  
  Today the community should, in theory, form an important part of India’s secular tapestry. There are 28 million or so Indian Christians who constitute around two per cent of the country’s total population.
  
  Yet the community’s very survival has never been under such threat. In 2022, there have already been over 550 violent attacks on India’s Christians, according to the United Christian Front (UCF), an Indian NGO. This is the largest number for any year on record.
  
  India is ruled by the Bharatiya Janata party (BJP) and headed by Narendra Modi, the country’s hugely popular prime minister, who was re-elected in 2019. Under Modi’s tenure, few would doubt that India doesn’t deserve a seat at the global top table. The country’s economy recently overtook the United Kingdom to become the fifth largest on the planet.
  For India’s Christians, the future has never been so uncertain
• 
  
• To consolidate their power domestically, though, the BJP has implemented a series of divisive Hindu nationalist policies. Their aim has been to appeal to the country’s majority Hindu electorate at the expense of its minorities.
  
  This has included stoking hatred against India’s Christians. The BJP has proposed state benefits be withdrawn from Christians and that believers should be banned from holding political office in the country.
  
  The BJP’s rhetoric has emboldened India’s myriad of powerful right-wing Hindu groups, like the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), which has around six million members. These groups are now increasingly leading violent mob attacks against Christians, their churches and pastors.
  
  On Sunday, in the central Indian state of Chhattisgarh, there were 20 coordinated attacks against the state’s Christians. Over 200 people were forced from their homes.
  
  ‘This coordinated wave of attacks against the Christian residents of Bastar [in Chhattisgarh] is shameful and highly condemnable,’ said Dr Michael Williams, the National President of the UCF.
  
  ‘This message of hate being spread by the RSS has no room in India and the authorities must deal with the perpetrators at once. They are causing irreparable damage to the fabric of our nation.’
  
  These groups broadly allege that Christians are trying to convert Hindus and change the religious make-up of India. Hindus currently make up 80 per cent of India’s population; the proportion of Christians in the country, around two per cent, has remained the same since the 1950s.
  
  The country’s police and judiciary are often allied or at least sympathetic to groups like the RSS, particularly in rural India, which creates an atmosphere of impunity.
  
  
  Reena Kamari, 26, who lives in the village of Bichigada in the central Indian state of Jharkhand was the victim of one such terrifying attack. Kamari converted from Hinduism to Christianity in 2017. A very sickly child, she says her health ailments improved as soon as she started praying to Jesus Christ – it was a miracle, she believes.
  
  In April this year, she was dragged from her home by a baying mob into her village square where she was beaten unconscious after refusing to convert back to Hinduism. She says she didn’t recognise those that assaulted her and believes they came from a different village or nearby town.
  
  ‘The police only made arrests after the incident got traction on social media but my attackers were released after a couple of days and they walk free around where I live,’ said Kamari. ‘I am thinking of fleeing my village as the other residents won’t let me practise my faith and I often get shouted at in the street or people tell my friends not to speak to me.’
  
  The Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian non-profit in the United States, has noted a 220 per cent increase in violent attacks on India’s Christians since 2014, when Modi was first elected. Open Doors International, a non-denominational Christian organisation supporting Christians globally, ranked India as the tenth most dangerous country in the world to be a Christian in 2022. India was outside the top 30 in 2014.
  
  Indian government legislation has worsened the treatment of the country’s Christians. At least nine states have introduced anti-conversion laws, which are being used to detain Christians for months on end if they practise their faith in public places.
  
  At least 450 Christian charities have also had their funding removed in India since 2011, according to Indian government data. Last December, Delhi announced that it was freezing accounts belonging to Mother Theresa’s Missionaries of Charity (MoC) in Kolkata because staff members had allegedly been forcefully converting Hindus.
  

 

[Staines R's]

This is worrying...

Joe Wallen
India’s war on Christians

• • 24 December 2022, 6:00am
  You must log in or register to see images
  
  Credit: Getty images
• Christmas is usually Nayomi Gracy’s favourite time of year. But this year, Gracy is feeling more fearful than cheerful. Right-wing Hindu groups have recently led a succession of violent attacks against her Christian community in the southern Indian state of Karnata
  
  When she attends church in her home city of Bangalore on Christmas Day, the congregation will be guarded by armed police. ‘It is a mental torture. They say we cannot go to church or they will kill us but the police have promised to protect us and to help us,’ said Gracy.
  
  India’s historic Christian community dates back to 52AD. It is believed the Apostle Thomas, better known as Doubting Thomas, arrived in the southern India state of Kerala and baptised a small group of residents.
  
  Today the community should, in theory, form an important part of India’s secular tapestry. There are 28 million or so Indian Christians who constitute around two per cent of the country’s total population.
  
  Yet the community’s very survival has never been under such threat. In 2022, there have already been over 550 violent attacks on India’s Christians, according to the United Christian Front (UCF), an Indian NGO. This is the largest number for any year on record.
  
  India is ruled by the Bharatiya Janata party (BJP) and headed by Narendra Modi, the country’s hugely popular prime minister, who was re-elected in 2019. Under Modi’s tenure, few would doubt that India doesn’t deserve a seat at the global top table. The country’s economy recently overtook the United Kingdom to become the fifth largest on the planet.
  For India’s Christians, the future has never been so uncertain
• 
  
• To consolidate their power domestically, though, the BJP has implemented a series of divisive Hindu nationalist policies. Their aim has been to appeal to the country’s majority Hindu electorate at the expense of its minorities.
  
  This has included stoking hatred against India’s Christians. The BJP has proposed state benefits be withdrawn from Christians and that believers should be banned from holding political office in the country.
  
  The BJP’s rhetoric has emboldened India’s myriad of powerful right-wing Hindu groups, like the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), which has around six million members. These groups are now increasingly leading violent mob attacks against Christians, their churches and pastors.
  
  On Sunday, in the central Indian state of Chhattisgarh, there were 20 coordinated attacks against the state’s Christians. Over 200 people were forced from their homes.
  
  ‘This coordinated wave of attacks against the Christian residents of Bastar [in Chhattisgarh] is shameful and highly condemnable,’ said Dr Michael Williams, the National President of the UCF.
  
  ‘This message of hate being spread by the RSS has no room in India and the authorities must deal with the perpetrators at once. They are causing irreparable damage to the fabric of our nation.’
  
  These groups broadly allege that Christians are trying to convert Hindus and change the religious make-up of India. Hindus currently make up 80 per cent of India’s population; the proportion of Christians in the country, around two per cent, has remained the same since the 1950s.
  
  The country’s police and judiciary are often allied or at least sympathetic to groups like the RSS, particularly in rural India, which creates an atmosphere of impunity.
  
  
  Reena Kamari, 26, who lives in the village of Bichigada in the central Indian state of Jharkhand was the victim of one such terrifying attack. Kamari converted from Hinduism to Christianity in 2017. A very sickly child, she says her health ailments improved as soon as she started praying to Jesus Christ – it was a miracle, she believes.
  
  In April this year, she was dragged from her home by a baying mob into her village square where she was beaten unconscious after refusing to convert back to Hinduism. She says she didn’t recognise those that assaulted her and believes they came from a different village or nearby town.
  
  ‘The police only made arrests after the incident got traction on social media but my attackers were released after a couple of days and they walk free around where I live,’ said Kamari. ‘I am thinking of fleeing my village as the other residents won’t let me practise my faith and I often get shouted at in the street or people tell my friends not to speak to me.’
  
  The Alliance Defending Freedom, a Christian non-profit in the United States, has noted a 220 per cent increase in violent attacks on India’s Christians since 2014, when Modi was first elected. Open Doors International, a non-denominational Christian organisation supporting Christians globally, ranked India as the tenth most dangerous country in the world to be a Christian in 2022. India was outside the top 30 in 2014.
  
  Indian government legislation has worsened the treatment of the country’s Christians. At least nine states have introduced anti-conversion laws, which are being used to detain Christians for months on end if they practise their faith in public places.
  
  At least 450 Christian charities have also had their funding removed in India since 2011, according to Indian government data. Last December, Delhi announced that it was freezing accounts belonging to Mother Theresa’s Missionaries of Charity (MoC) in Kolkata because staff members had allegedly been forcefully converting Hindus.

To be fair……the BJP seem to hate anyone who isn’t Hindu, be it Christian, Muslim or Buddhist

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

To be fair……the BJP seem to hate anyone who isn’t Hindu, be it Christian, Muslim or Buddhist

Yes, I'm sure that's true. Not a good look for India

 

[Frome-Ranger]

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What a tool

The full clip is even worse, he asks him what his plans are this weekend and the guy says he's "just hoping to get through Christmas and hoping St Mungo's can help him with temporary accommodation so he's not on the street"
The lack of empathy and awareness is frankly stunning.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

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What a tool

This would be a classic Alan Partridge episode.

 

[Staines R's]

The full clip is even worse, he asks him what his plans are this weekend and the guy says he's "just hoping to get through Christmas and hoping St Mungo's can help him with temporary accommodation so he's not on the street"
The lack of empathy and awareness is frankly stunning.

Surely that’s been taken out of context ? No one can be THAT devoid of empathy or THAT ****ing stupid…….oh wait

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Yesterday I spent twelve and a half hours in A&E, which perfectly illustrated today's NHS.
I was having severe abdominal pain that had lasted for three days and I decided it probably needed checking.
I called my GP surgery and I couldn't even speak to any of the doctors as they were booked up.
I then phoned 111 and gave up after being on hold for over an hour.
Then I went on the 111 website which told me that either, I should call 999 or had covid, depending on how I answered the irrelevant questions!!
Eventually I got driven to A&E, arriving at 145pm.
I was triaged reasonably quickly, having the usual basic tests. After another hour or so I saw an A&E doctor who examined me and organised urine and blood tests.
Another hour or so and I had the blood taken and was given an ECG at the same time.
Then there was a longish wait to see a general surgeon with my results (suspected appendicitis etc).
As I sat in the waiting area I had a bird's-eye view of how the place was running.
Ambulance crews coming and going to book in arrivals, nurses and doctors rushing around, all looking pretty stressed, but all with excellent people skills with the wide variety of human life that came through.
All the while, the place was getting busier and busier.
Eventually, around 630pm I saw the surgeon who said that the bloods were all good, but he suspected two or three other causes and wanted to send me for a scan.
He told me to go back to the waiting area and I'd be called.
7 hours later I was still trying to track down my scan appointment and several different, mega busy staff tried in vain to track down any information about me whatsoever.
At 130am I told them I was discharging myself. At that moment a doctor appeared and said he had a trauma to deal with and then he'd see me.
30 minutes later he called me.
Apparently the general surgery doctor had gone home and not told anyone about me. A&E can't access general surgery notes etc etc.
He finally told me to go home around 215am with a vague diagnosis and even stranger follow up for the next day. He directed me to the wrong department for this!!

The point of this ridiculously long post is to highlight both how utterly fantastic our NHS is along with the people who work in it (I had an awful lot of important tests in that visit) and also how ridiculously over stretched it is.
The doctor who "forgot" about me had been bleeped while I was with him to attend a paediatric trauma that was incoming. No doubt he was frazzled!!

Our NHS and it's staff is worth fighting for, but does need some kind of reform imo to get it off its knees.
This government's attitude towards it is shameful.

Sorry to hear you've been unwell. Hope you're feeling better, especially for tomorrow.

Fully agree on your points on the NHS. It needs some fairly major surgery, but the NIMBY crowd massively hold it back in my opinion.

 

[Steelmonkey]

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[Staines R's]

Sorry to hear you've been unwell. Hope you're feeling better, especially for tomorrow.

Fully agree on your points on the NHS. It needs some fairly major surgery, but the NIMBY crowd massively hold it back in my opinion.

Genuine question raving……how do you Devine the NIMBY crowd…and how do you feel they are holding it back ?

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Genuine question raving……how do you Devine the NIMBY crowd…and how do you feel they are holding it back ?

If we were designing a health system from a blank sheet of paper we'd have far fewer hospitals, and they'd be bigger, with all associated specialisms under one roof. Not this crazy system where we have different specialisms in different hospitals in NW London - which simply doesn't work in an increasingly multi-morbid world.

Centralisation of stroke services is a great example of the type of change I'm talking about. In London we moved from having 30 stroke services to 8 - which saves a lot of lives and money each year. Further reading: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0ntTtBLpDR1iWV49Gj68Ke

The problem is that these changes are always highly controversial. The stroke services were before the happened, with locals angry about losing 'their' stroke service. Same happens with A&Es or maternity units that all the data (and no doubt your professional experience) would say ought to be shut down, with that resource spent expanding capacity in fewer better services.

I could go on, but won't bore you. I'm sure it's an argument you've heard before.

 

[Staines R's]

If we were designing a health system from a blank sheet of paper we'd have far fewer hospitals, and they'd be bigger, with all associated specialisms under one roof. Not this crazy system where we have different specialisms in different hospitals in NW London - which simply doesn't work in an increasingly multi-morbid world.

Centralisation of stroke services is a great example of the type of change I'm talking about. In London we moved from having 30 stroke services to 8 - which saves a lot of lives and money each year. Further reading: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...8QFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0ntTtBLpDR1iWV49Gj68Ke

The problem is that these changes are always highly controversial. The stroke services were before the happened, with locals angry about losing 'their' stroke service. Same happens with A&Es or maternity units that all the data (and no doubt your professional experience) would say ought to be shut down, with that resource spent expanding capacity in fewer better services.

I could go on, but won't bore you. I'm sure it's an argument you've heard before.

The thing is though is that we aren’t starting from a blank piece of paper…..and the hospital infrastructure is there from the 50’s/60’s/70’s….it just seems to me, successive governments talk a lot of building new hospitals but not many actually come to fruition, however many services at the old hospitals still keep on closing.
I genuinely haven’t heard of any new hospitals being built or proposed and people shouting “NIMBY”…..however I might be wrong…but surely if that did happen then that must be a minority ?
My personal point of view is that the “specialised” system that we use in London works very well in a emergency setting…..with MTCs/HACs/HASUs etc exactly where we know they are, and if we need them, the specialised team are on call….I’m not so sure that would work if every hospital had the whole lot as we struggle for staff anyhow.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I've never met anyone that doesn't at some time have Nimby characteristics, though some might not admit it.

"Excuse me, sir, that field behind your house with the mature oaks and beeches where locals take their dogs for a walk and children play? We're going to fit a large estate of densely configured houses there with plastic lawns that are easy to hose clean. All the houses will have at least 2 cars and in the summer, new residents will open their windows and share their music with you at full volume."

"Oh, wonderful."

"Yes, you may have to travel 10 miles to find a school for your kid, GP appointments must be made 2 months in advance and there's no chance of finding an NHS dentist because of the competition from other patients. Bring a sleeping bag and cooking facilities if you need to go to A & E."

"Marvellous, can't wait."

Fantasy at Christmas.

 

[Stroller]

I've never met anyone that doesn't at some time have Nimby characteristics, though some might not admit it.

"Excuse me, sir, that field behind your house with the mature oaks and beeches where locals take their dogs for a walk and children play? We're going to fit a large estate of densely configured houses there with plastic lawns that are easy to hose clean. All the houses will have at least 2 cars and in the summer, new residents will open their windows and share their music with you at full volume."

"Oh, wonderful."

"Yes, you may have to travel 10 miles to find a school for your kid, GP appointments must be made 2 months in advance and there's no chance of finding an NHS dentist because of the competition from other patients. Bring a sleeping bag and cooking facilities if you need to go to A & E."

"Marvellous, can't wait."

Fantasy at Christmas.

Bah, Humbug!

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Bah, Humbug!

Yes, probably