Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

In my humble opinion policies, always voted for this party, anti-other party, to keep other party leader from Downing Street and pro this party’s leader are all pretty much the same thing to most voters. There are Tory votes in my mother’s town that would vote for cow pat swarming with flies if you stuck a blue rosette on it*.


(*I suspect this description applies to much of the current government in the eyes of some on here)

I suppose most people vote out of habit/prejudice. The argument is about the relatively small number of genuine floating voters who can influence the result in a relatively small number of constituencies. Or if someone can mobilise the ever increasing ‘did not vote’ segment.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Here's an example of the state of some parts of the NHS. My aunt had excruciating pain in her jaw. Goes to the doctor, referred to a consultant, and told she would be at the back of a long queue.

My aunt used to work as a physiotherapist for the NHS, she does not like private care, even though she is more than able to pay for it. But in view of her awful predicament with the pain, she and my uncle agree she must go to to a private clinic. She does, and the clinic diagnoses face and neck cancer immediately. She is taken straight to St George's Hospital in Tooting under the NHS and has an operation the next day.

What would have happened if she could not have afforded to get the private diagnosis? I feel we're increasingly heading for a two speed NHS. Big changes are needed in an organisation that is excellent in parts and really poor in others.

That she got a doctor's appointment in the first place is a result. I have had two 'appointments' since Covid and both were 'telephone video' appointments after I'd got past the gatekeeper receptionist.

However, I recently had to get my TfL medical which my GP hasn't done in the previous two years where I've had to arrange through third party medical companies. This year I rang expecting to either be told they still weren't doing them or I would have to wait weeks as it was pre-Covid but to my surprise I was told 'Come on down when would I like it?' So the fact I was being charged £120 for it and the wait disappears. We've been had...

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I’m pleased your aunt was able to get the treatment whatever the route and, assuming this is a recent event, wish her a speedy recovery.

Thanks, Ubes. She's been in post-op intensive care, so hopefully she'll be out soon and home after 3 weeks.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

That she got a doctor's appointment in the first place is a result. I have had two 'appointments' since Covid and both were 'telephone video' appointments after I'd got past the gatekeeper receptionist.

However, I recently had to get my TfL medical which my GP hasn't done in the previous two years where I've had to arrange through third party medical companies. This year I rang expecting to either be told they still weren't doing them or I would have to wait weeks as it was pre-Covid but to my surprise I was told 'Come on down when would I like it?' So the fact I was being charged £120 for it and the wait disappears. We've been had...

I'm thinking private care and insurance will have quite a big part to play in a future, revamped NHS.

 

[sb_73]

I'm thinking private care and insurance will have quite a big part to play in a future, revamped NHS.

I’ve long thought that the Dutch and German insurance systems, which provide better (though not perfect) healthcare for all, even those who can’t afford to contribute, make a lot of sense. Where providers are just that, providers, not classed as private, public etc. people forget that GP practices are mostly private partnerships with central government/taxpayer funding. We already have a mixed model.

I fear that the NHS is so politicised that it would be electoral suicide to stand on a platform of basic reform, and, even if successful, implementing the reform would be more than a challenge. Perhaps a tragic implosion is the only way to force change.

But making the life of clinicians tolerable, through hours and pay, is a prerequisite to getting the biggest thing right - training enough people and getting them to stay in the country/ profession once trained. Capacity, lack of, is killing access and quality now.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

I’ve long thought that the Dutch and German insurance systems, which provide better (though not perfect) healthcare for all, even those who can’t afford to contribute, make a lot of sense. Where providers are just that, providers, not classed as private, public etc. people forget that GP practices are mostly private partnerships with central government/taxpayer funding. We already have a mixed model.

I fear that the NHS is so politicised that it would be electoral suicide to stand on a platform of basic reform, and, even if successful, implementing the reform would be more than a challenge. Perhaps a tragic implosion is the only way to force change.

But making the life of clinicians tolerable, through hours and pay, is a prerequisite to getting the biggest thing right - training enough people and getting them to stay in the country/ profession once trained. Capacity, lack of, is killing access and quality now.

Yes, the way things are going, money will talk. GP's and consultants will take on increasing amounts of private work. Those who can afford it won't complain. It's only when those who can't afford it find a rump of a system left that politicians may be brave enough to suggest something other than free at the point of delivery. I believe Ireland charges all but the poorest patents a fee per appointment. I cannot see that is so revolutionary as to be unacceptable.

 

[Sooperhoop]

Yes, the way things are going, money will talk. GP's and consultants will take on increasing amounts of private work. Those who can afford it won't complain. It's only when those who can't afford it find a rump of a system left that politicians may be brave enough to suggest something other than free at the point of delivery. I believe Ireland charges all but the poorest patents a fee per appointment. I cannot see that is so revolutionary as to be unacceptable.

If you look at how NHS dental patients have been marginalized over the past 20 years the model is taking shape for the rest of the NHS. Only a matter of time before the only free appointments will be kids and those on benefits, I think that is inevitable. It might help if the waste in the system was dealt with, my experience of doing NHS jobs collecting patients for hospital appointments shows unbelievable incompetence in the service, that's just one tiny section of waste...

 

[rangercol]

Until a grown up discussion can be had at political level, without the left screaming "no privatisation" and completely shutting down the discussion, nothing will change for the better.

 

[sb_73]

If you look at how NHS dental patients have been marginalized over the past 20 years the model is taking shape for the rest of the NHS. Only a matter of time before the only free appointments will be kids and those on benefits, I think that is inevitable. It might help if the waste in the system was dealt with, my experience of doing NHS jobs collecting patients for hospital appointments shows unbelievable incompetence in the service, that's just one tiny section of waste...

I’ve worked in the NHS twice (in management, sorry) on both occasions for less than a year, in 1987/88 and 1994/95. I didn’t learn the first time. The people were brilliant, clinicians, managers, support staff (without whom the whole thing would collapse), really trying their best and committed to the NHS. But it drove me mad, took an age to get a decision made, no matter how well intentioned people were there was inefficiency all over the place, I felt I couldn’t add any value. The system runs on goodwill, staff doing things they aren’t paid to do, because they care. This is great, but a **** way to run anything.

The difference with the dental service is similar to primary care. NHS dentists also do private work, own their premises etc. NHS hospitals are owned by the state (I’d like to say the taxpayer or citizens, but that doesn’t ring true). The capital asset is enormous and also an enormous expense. The private finance initiative showed what a blind alley that is at huge expense. Who is going buy these massive resource hungry edifices?

 

[Uber_Hoop]

You must log in or register to see media

 

[Stroller]

Until a grown up discussion can be had at political level, without the left screaming "no privatisation" and completely shutting down the discussion, nothing will change for the better.

Or perhaps until the right stops actually privatising.

 

[rangercol]

Or perhaps until right stops actually privatising.

I rest my case.

 

[Stroller]

I rest my case.

Why don't you actually say something?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Or perhaps until the right stops actually privatising.

I thought it was the Labour Party that brought Private Finance Initiatives into the NHS earlier this century.

 

[Willhoops]

Or perhaps until the right stops actually privatising.

Could you imagine a decade ago this narrative, jewel in the British crown, it was described as scaremongering it’d never happen to this…

If the public stops ‘screaming’ .. using that is just an obvious way to just dismiss objections and is a more and more common tactic, I think the PPE contracts show us where this is going. Our kids futures are ****ing bleak, never mind eh.

 

[Stroller]

I thought it was the Labour Party that brought Private Finance Initiatives into the NHS earlier this century.

OK, here's the thing....

The left introduced the NHS, the right don't like it. The left want to protect it, the right would rather sell it to the highest bidder.

No amount of Tories calling it 'Our NHS' is ever going to change those (simplistic, yes) basic facts.

 

[rangercol]

****'s sake.
Pathetic. It never changes.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

OK, here's the thing....

The left introduced the NHS, the right don't like it. The left want to protect it, the right would rather sell it to the highest bidder.

No amount of Tories calling it 'Our NHS' is ever going to change those (simplistic, yes) basic facts.

I'm not sure who the left is, when Labour themselves introduced PFI. Are we talking Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot?

 

[Willhoops]

****'s sake.
Pathetic. It never changes.

Look at what you’re actually saying here.. me, Strolls and lefties are pathetic for wanting to protect free healthcare. Really? You want your kids/grandkids to be denied something you’ve had the benefit of your entire life.

 

[Stroller]

****'s sake.
Pathetic. It never changes.

Nothing to actually say, then?