Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

If Putin does invade Ukraine, there will be thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of lives lost. Then there is no question who the "bad" guy will be. Iraq was terrible but at least there was a genuine belief that by removing Saddam, democracy might replace him. Naive in hindsight. Putin has no such aim - quite the reverse.

Sorry mate but if you think that removing Saddam was done in the name of “democracy” then you are being very naive.

 

[ELLERS]

Have to agree with Staines here. Saddams removal was nothing to do with Terrorists /democracy.

 

[colognehornet]

Historically, The West's record has been poor in places, Stainsey, agreed. Particularly the US. You can go back to the anti-communism era and McCarthyism, that led on to Vietnam and Korea. Interference in Iran's affairs has led to long term relationship failure. And then there was Iraq. You have to give credit too - they got the Balkans right and saved lives. And if Syria and Afghanistan are anything to go by, the US has learned lessons from interference in other countries affairs.

But this is the past, and we have to look forward. The problem with the argument that you can't act now because the past makes it hypocrisy, is that, for example, the UK and France would have been prevented from taking action against Germany when Poland was invaded in 1939, because both these countries had empires. You have to take the position from where we are now, and look at the set of facts surrounding Russia and Ukraine as it presently is. And hopefully build a coalition that includes countries outside NATO too.

Just to pick up on this Goldie as I hadn't noticed it before - every criminal on this planet would like to be able to say ''forget the past'' and only look forward. The fact is that the USA has been at war for 93% of its history and every single US president since 1945 has ordered a military incursion somewhere. There are many reasons for the USA being such a warlike nation but four of the most obvious are:
1. They have the missionary idea that only 'their way' is the right one and they have a duty to impose it on everyone else.
2. The arms lobby is so massive in the USA that they need war like you need football.
3. They do not have the military facilities within the USA to bring home all their forces and billet them there and so have to keep them abroad.
4. The Americans have no experience of what war is actually like if fought on home soil - this is why when you talk about ''the war'' in the USA they think you are referring about something to do with Robert E. Lee. Otherwise they are insulated by water and have no real idea what it all means other than being a video event.

Just how long they can keep this up, together with the lying justifications that they use every time they have built too many bombs in order to store them safely, without the rest of the World waking up I honestly don't know. Just ask - how many countries has eg. Iran attacked over the last 100 years and then compare this to that of the USA.

 

[colognehornet]

Have to agree with Staines here. Saddams removal was nothing to do with Terrorists /democracy.

You could say the same about the murder of Gaddafi.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Sorry mate but if you think that removing Saddam was done in the name of “democracy” then you are being very naive.

You mean it was accidental that a tyrant was removed and Iraq now has a Parliament and regular elections? The underestimate by Bush and Blair was the vehemence of the tribal clashes, as fuelled by Iran.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Just to pick up on this Goldie as I hadn't noticed it before - every criminal on this planet would like to be able to say ''forget the past'' and only look forward. The fact is that the USA has been at war for 93% of its history and every single US president since 1945 has ordered a military incursion somewhere. There are many reasons for the USA being such a warlike nation but four of the most obvious are:
1. They have the missionary idea that only 'their way' is the right one and they have a duty to impose it on everyone else.
2. The arms lobby is so massive in the USA that they need war like you need football.
3. They do not have the military facilities within the USA to bring home all their forces and billet them there and so have to keep them abroad.
4. The Americans have no experience of what war is actually like if fought on home soil - this is why when you talk about ''the war'' in the USA they think you are referring about something to do with Robert E. Lee. Otherwise they are insulated by water and have no real idea what it all means other than being a video event.

Just how long they can keep this up, together with the lying justifications that they use every time they have built too many bombs in order to store them safely, without the rest of the World waking up I honestly don't know. Just ask - how many countries has eg. Iran attacked over the last 100 years and then compare this to that of the USA.

I agree there has been a recklessness about America's foreign policy at times in the past. Vietnam stands out, and America got a pretty good idea what war was about there. And Pearl Harbour. Remind me who attacked whom there. How many young American men died fighting the country you live in? And thank God for them, otherwise the whole of Europe might have been under the jackboot.

I've noticed it's black and white for you, Cologne. You won't give America credit for anything. After WW2 and the death and devastation wreaked by Germany, and after Stalin had murdered 20 million, someone had to stand up and be counted. Iran didn't volunteer, it's easier to do nothing. So I give credit to America for that. Do you?

 

[Staines R's]

You mean it was accidental that a tyrant was removed and Iraq now has a Parliament and regular elections? The underestimate by Bush and Blair was the vehemence of the tribal clashes, as fuelled by Iran.

Are you putting words in my mouth again Goldie….you know exactly what I meant. We didn’t go in ‘cos we suddenly had a conscience and thought after all those years that Saddam was a bad man…we knew that for ****ing years but it suited our interests to let him get on with it.
Funny how we other throw the tyrants that we fall out with…but give arms to the ones we like.

 

[bobmid]

Are you putting words in my mouth again Goldie….you know exactly what I meant. We didn’t go in ‘cos we suddenly had a conscience and thought after all those years that Saddam was a bad man…we knew that for ****ing years but it suited our interests to let him get on with it.
Funny how we other throw the tyrants that we fall out with…but give arms to the ones we like.

Well said that man!

 

[bobmid]

Im throwing my hat in the ring. I dont believe Russia will invade the Ukraine.

 

[colognehornet]

I agree there has been a recklessness about America's foreign policy at times in the past. Vietnam stands out, and America got a pretty good idea what war was about there. And Pearl Harbour. Remind me who attacked whom there. How many young American men died fighting the country you live in? And thank God for them, otherwise the whole of Europe might have been under the jackboot.

I've noticed it's black and white for you, Cologne. You won't give America credit for anything. After WW2 and the death and devastation wreaked by Germany, and after Stalin had murdered 20 million, someone had to stand up and be counted. Iran didn't volunteer, it's easier to do nothing. So I give credit to America for that. Do you?

When I said that the USA had no real idea of the consequences of war I was referring to war fought on home soil Goldie which I think you knew. All American casualties in World War 2 were military ones - as opposed to the 12 million civilians who died in the USSR, or the flattened cities. Countries like Russia and Germany know first hand the devastation of having a war fought on their own soil the USA doesn't. You ask how many American servicemen died fighting the country i live in - the answer to that is that all American service dead added up (over all their military incursions) is less than the number who died in the American Civil War. You ask why I don't give credit to them for 'liberating' Europe from the Nazi jackboot - they were not interested in coming into the European War until it became obvious that the USSR was going to win it - all the turning points of that war had been reached already before they entered.

 

[ELLERS]

Im throwing my hat in the ring. I dont believe Russia will invade the Ukraine.

No s##t Sherlock!

 

[Staines R's]

Im throwing my hat in the ring. I dont believe Russia will invade the Ukraine.

I’m really not so sure Bob. To be honest, if Russia doesn’t invade then it makes them look far better in the eyes of the world. They can then ask what all the fuss was about, accuse the West of stoking up the flames of mad hysteria and in the meantime they’ve shown that they have the military might to threaten Ukraine if they press ahead to join NATO (whilst opening up some kind of diplomatic dialogue to stop the happening)

But saying all that…Putin seems to be a 5 star nut job, narcissistic megalomaniac who might just say “**** it, let’s do this” and invade anyway.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Are you putting words in my mouth again Goldie….you know exactly what I meant. We didn’t go in ‘cos we suddenly had a conscience and thought after all those years that Saddam was a bad man…we knew that for ****ing years but it suited our interests to let him get on with it.
Funny how we other throw the tyrants that we fall out with…but give arms to the ones we like.

Saddam's fate was sealed when he invaded Kuwait, even if it took two goes. Good riddance. I agree with you about arming other tyrants, like Saudi Arabia. I guess you have to pick off the worst first.

 

[colognehornet]

Saddam's fate was sealed when he invaded Kuwait, even if it took two goes. Good riddance. I agree with you about arming other tyrants, like Saudi Arabia. I guess you have to pick off the worst first.

Strange how Saddam was America's friend when Iraq attacked Iran - they even delivered chemical weapons to them for the purpose !

 

[Staines R's]

Saddam's fate was sealed when he invaded Kuwait, even if it took two goes. Good riddance. I agree with you about arming other tyrants, like Saudi Arabia. I guess you have to pick off the worst first.

How long do you think we will take to have a go at overthrowing the House of Saud and it’s tyrannical regime. Months ? Years ? Decades ?
I absolutely agree with you, Saddam was a brutal despot who ruled with a fist of terror against anyone who opposed him……and he deserved everything he got. However we spent years training his army and giving weapons and aid to his killers, mainly ‘cos he was fighting our big enemy at the time, Iran. We didn’t give a **** about him killing innocents then ‘cos it suited our purpose.

I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of it all

 

[Staines R's]

Strange how Saddam was America's friend when Iraq attacked Iran - they even delivered chemical weapons to them for the purpose !

The Riegle Report made very interesting and somewhat shocking reading

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

When I said that the USA had no real idea of the consequences of war I was referring to war fought on home soil Goldie which I think you knew. All American casualties in World War 2 were military ones - as opposed to the 12 million civilians who died in the USSR, or the flattened cities. Countries like Russia and Germany know first hand the devastation of having a war fought on their own soil the USA doesn't. You ask how many American servicemen died fighting the country i live in - the answer to that is that all American service dead added up (over all their military incursions) is less than the number who died in the American Civil War. You ask why I don't give credit to them for 'liberating' Europe from the Nazi jackboot - they were not interested in coming into the European War until it became obvious that the USSR was going to win it - all the turning points of that war had been reached already before they entered.

?? The Americans came into the war after Pearl Harbour at the end of 1941. The Soviets were still trying to relieve Stalingrad in 42 and 43, so it was by no means clear they were going to win.

Germany started WW2 by invading Poland and Stalin killed his own people by the millions. Yet you use as an argument against America, the fact that its own civilians didn't suffer? How incredibly perverse.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

How long do you think we will take to have a go at overthrowing the House of Saud and it’s tyrannical regime. Months ? Years ? Decades ?
I absolutely agree with you, Saddam was a brutal despot who ruled with a fist of terror against anyone who opposed him……and he deserved everything he got. However we spent years training his army and giving weapons and aid to his killers, mainly ‘cos he was fighting our big enemy at the time, Iran. We didn’t give a **** about him killing innocents then ‘cos it suited our purpose.

I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of it all

And I've not disagreed with you on the anomalies and hypocrisy of the past, but that cannot be allowed to govern the policies of the future. Lessons have to be learned and move on. Ask Germany.

 

[Staines R's]

And I've not disagreed with you on the anomalies and hypocrisy of the past, but that cannot be allowed to govern the policies of the future. Lessons have to be learned and move on. Ask Germany.

So do you think the West is not still arming and aiding despots and tyrants ? Possibly like the ones you’ve already mentioned ? When does it become “the past” and we can move on ? Ask Yemen

 

[bobmid]

No s##t Sherlock!

Im here all night