Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Hammersmith reborn]

Saddam's fate was sealed when he invaded Kuwait, even if it took two goes. Good riddance. I agree with you about arming other tyrants, like Saudi Arabia. I guess you have to pick off the worst first.

Can we pick off Parker next please ?

 

[rangercol]

When I said that the USA had no real idea of the consequences of war I was referring to war fought on home soil Goldie which I think you knew. All American casualties in World War 2 were military ones - as opposed to the 12 million civilians who died in the USSR, or the flattened cities. Countries like Russia and Germany know first hand the devastation of having a war fought on their own soil the USA doesn't. You ask how many American servicemen died fighting the country i live in - the answer to that is that all American service dead added up (over all their military incursions) is less than the number who died in the American Civil War. You ask why I don't give credit to them for 'liberating' Europe from the Nazi jackboot - they were not interested in coming into the European War until it became obvious that the USSR was going to win it - all the turning points of that war had been reached already before they entered.

What an absolute pile of ****.

 

[Hammersmith reborn]

When I said that the USA had no real idea of the consequences of war I was referring to war fought on home soil Goldie which I think you knew. All American casualties in World War 2 were military ones - as opposed to the 12 million civilians who died in the USSR, or the flattened cities. Countries like Russia and Germany know first hand the devastation of having a war fought on their own soil the USA doesn't. You ask how many American servicemen died fighting the country i live in - the answer to that is that all American service dead added up (over all their military incursions) is less than the number who died in the American Civil War. You ask why I don't give credit to them for 'liberating' Europe from the Nazi jackboot - they were not interested in coming into the European War until it became obvious that the USSR was going to win it - all the turning points of that war had been reached already before they entered.

Not too sure about that pal, especially the war in the Pacific and Burma.

 

[rangercol]

?? The Americans came into the war after Pearl Harbour at the end of 1941. The Soviets were still trying to relieve Stalingrad in 42 and 43, so it was by no means clear they were going to win.

Germany started WW2 by invading Poland and Stalin killed his own people by the millions. Yet you use as an argument against America, the fact that its own civilians didn't suffer? How incredibly perverse.

Amazing how some people re-write history in order to win an argument.

 

[bobmid]

Can we pick off Parker next please ?

Scott?

 

[rangercol]

So do you think the West is not still arming and aiding despots and tyrants ? Possibly like the ones you’ve already mentioned ? When does it become “the past” and we can move on ? Ask Yemen

All major Countries have very questionable foreign policies and secret services.
I guess one has to choose the lesser of the evils.

In China, Russia, North Korea etc you would be in big trouble for criticising your own Country publicly.
Doesn't make our actions right, or others like the USA, but try living in these other places.

 

[Steelmonkey]

Scott?

No, the driver from Thunderbirds

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[Staines R's]

All major Countries have very questionable foreign policies and secret services.
I guess one has to choose the lesser of the evils.

In China, Russia, North Korea etc you would be in big trouble for criticising your own Country publicly.
Doesn't make our actions right, or others like the USA, but try living in these other places.

There is “choosing the lesser of two evils”, Col….and there is arming and abetting genocide and killing for our own gain, both territorial and financial.
Doing the latter, as we have done for decades and still continue to do, doesn’t sit right with me personally.

 

[colognehornet]

?? The Americans came into the war after Pearl Harbour at the end of 1941. The Soviets were still trying to relieve Stalingrad in 42 and 43, so it was by no means clear they were going to win.

Germany started WW2 by invading Poland and Stalin killed his own people by the millions. Yet you use as an argument against America, the fact that its own civilians didn't suffer? How incredibly perverse.

The Americans came into the Pacific war before Stalingrad but not the European one which was what I said if you had read my post accurately. It was by no means clear after Pearl Harbour that America would become involved against the Nazis as well - this only happened after it became obvious that the USSR would win. The fact that American cities were never bombed, and its civilian population wasn't targeted plays an important role here because that is the main characteristic of modern warfare - namely that there are more civilian casualties than military ones. This is not meant as an argument against America, just that they have no experience of the type of total war which other countries have suffered. They have never seen their cities in ruins - those that have know more about the realities of war.

 

[QPR Oslo]

Just to pick up on this Goldie as I hadn't noticed it before - every criminal on this planet would like to be able to say ''forget the past'' and only look forward. The fact is that the USA has been at war for 93% of its history and every single US president since 1945 has ordered a military incursion somewhere. There are many reasons for the USA being such a warlike nation but four of the most obvious are:
1. They have the missionary idea that only 'their way' is the right one and they have a duty to impose it on everyone else.
2. The arms lobby is so massive in the USA that they need war like you need football.
3. They do not have the military facilities within the USA to bring home all their forces and billet them there and so have to keep them abroad.
4. The Americans have no experience of what war is actually like if fought on home soil - this is why when you talk about ''the war'' in the USA they think you are referring about something to do with Robert E. Lee. Otherwise they are insulated by water and have no real idea what it all means other than being a video event.

Just how long they can keep this up, together with the lying justifications that they use every time they have built too many bombs in order to store them safely, without the rest of the World waking up I honestly don't know. Just ask - how many countries has eg. Iran attacked over the last 100 years and then compare this to that of the USA.

I'm with you on your historical view of the US Cologne, but not so sure that is the outlook of the current Biden administration or even Trumps. They have left Afghanistan, yes in a hell of a mess, and Biden seems to be making it clear they won't be fighting in Ukraine themselves even though support is being given to the region. They have become more insular, no longer want to be the Word's policeman they say. How long it will last we don't know, but it maybe not too long if Russia does take Ukraine or China Taiwan for example.

 

[colognehornet]

What an absolute pile of ****.

Which part of it can you contradict ?

 

[rangercol]

There is “choosing the lesser of two evils”, Col….and there is arming and abetting genocide and killing for our own gain, both territorial and financial.
Doing the latter, as we have done for decades and still continue to do, doesn’t sit right with me personally.

I believe that China, Russia and others are worse than us, both with foreign policies and human rigjts etc.
I agree it doesn't make it right, whoever does it.

What winds me up is people (not you) who criticise only the West, whilst living here.
Dismantling Western Democracies is high on many of these people's agendas imo.

 

[rangercol]

The Americans came into the Pacific war before Stalingrad but not the European one which was what I said if you had read my post accurately. It was by no means clear after Pearl Harbour that America would become involved against the Nazis as well - this only happened after it became obvious that the USSR would win. The fact that American cities were never bombed, and its civilian population wasn't targeted plays an important role here because that is the main characteristic of modern warfare - namely that there are more civilian casualties than military ones. This is not meant as an argument against America, just that they have no experience of the type of total war which other countries have suffered. They have never seen their cities in ruins - those that have know more about the realities of war.

Like Londoners!

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

The Americans came into the Pacific war before Stalingrad but not the European one which was what I said if you had read my post accurately. It was by no means clear after Pearl Harbour that America would become involved against the Nazis as well - this only happened after it became obvious that the USSR would win. The fact that American cities were never bombed, and its civilian population wasn't targeted plays an important role here because that is the main characteristic of modern warfare - namely that there are more civilian casualties than military ones. This is not meant as an argument against America, just that they have no experience of the type of total war which other countries have suffered. They have never seen their cities in ruins - those that have know more about the realities of war.

US soldiers started arriving in the UK in Jan 1942. US aircraft started bombing Nazi Germany in July 1942. Your dates are all out.

 

[Staines R's]

I believe that China, Russia and others are worse than us, both with foreign policies and human rigjts etc.
I agree it doesn't make it right, whoever does it.

What winds me up is people (not you) who criticise only the West, whilst living here.
Dismantling Western Democracies is high on many of these people's agendas imo.

Mate, the West has many things that are great and we should be proud of what this country has achieved….and also I agree the human rights record in countries like China and Russia are also appallingly bad.
However, what gets to me is the painting of us in the West as being the “knights in shining armour” and wanting to spread goodness throughout the world….we really ain’t.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Mate, the West has many things that are great and we should be proud of what this country has achieved….and also I agree the human rights record in countries like China and Russia are also appallingly bad.
However, what gets to me is the painting of us in the West as being the “knights in shining armour” and wanting to spread goodness throughout the world….we really ain’t.

No one is saying that, Stainsey

 

[Steelmonkey]

The Americans came into the Pacific war before Stalingrad but not the European one which was what I said if you had read my post accurately. It was by no means clear after Pearl Harbour that America would become involved against the Nazis as well - this only happened after it became obvious that the USSR would win. The fact that American cities were never bombed, and its civilian population wasn't targeted plays an important role here because that is the main characteristic of modern warfare - namely that there are more civilian casualties than military ones. This is not meant as an argument against America, just that they have no experience of the type of total war which other countries have suffered. They have never seen their cities in ruins - those that have know more about the realities of war.

I din't disagree with some if your points, but what about the North Africa campaign (early 1942) and Italy (early 1943) - plenty of US involvement in both of them.

 

[Staines R's]

No one is saying that, Stainsey

Trust me some really do

 

[rangercol]

Which part of it can you contradict ?

The USA joined WW2 as a direct consequence of Pearl Harbour where 2400 Americans were killed. Not that you'll care about that.
The Americans were keen to stay out of the conflict in 1939, but already then there was growing concern about Hitler. After Pearl Harbour public opinion was hugely in favour of joining the war.
As Goldie says, your history is all over the place and your hatred of the West clear for all to see.

 

[QPR Oslo]

The Americans came into the Pacific war before Stalingrad but not the European one which was what I said if you had read my post accurately. It was by no means clear after Pearl Harbour that America would become involved against the Nazis as well - this only happened after it became obvious that the USSR would win. The fact that American cities were never bombed, and its civilian population wasn't targeted plays an important role here because that is the main characteristic of modern warfare - namely that there are more civilian casualties than military ones. This is not meant as an argument against America, just that they have no experience of the type of total war which other countries have suffered. They have never seen their cities in ruins - those that have know more about the realities of war.

Never seen their Cities in Ruins? New York pal, 11/9/01. Huge shock for them all right, and they then went after the wrong man, Saddam