Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Staines R's]

David Kelly committed suicide according to an independent inquiry. If you know more, Stainsey, I'd be interested.

Look at Litvinenko, and the poisonings in Salisbury. We don't do that, otherwise Burgess, Maclean wouldn't have died of natural causes in old age.

If you look at the case of David Kelly in more detail there are good reasons to suggest that there is more to his supposed suicide than meets the eye.

We might not have been caught poisoning spies (yet) however our record in places like Northern Ireland, for example “stakeknife” hardly paints the British state as picture of purity…oh and let’s not forget Chile and Pinochet.
We haven’t of course even started talking about the USAs assistance, both militarily and financially to various right wing guerrilla groups in other throwing entrar American democratic governments elected , just ‘cos they see them as alien to the “cause”

We really ain’t the good guys mate

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

If you look at the case of David Kelly in more detail there are good reasons to suggest that there is more to his supposed suicide than meets the eye.

We might not have been caught poisoning spies (yet) however our record in places like Northern Ireland, for example “stakeknife” hardly paints the British state as picture of purity…oh and let’s not forget Chile and Pinochet.
We haven’t of course even started talking about the USAs assistance, both militarily and financially to various right wing guerrilla groups in other throwing entrar American democratic governments elected , just ‘cos they see them as alien to the “cause”

We really ain’t the good guys mate

So are you saying Russia has a right to occupy Ukraine by force?

 

[Staines R's]

So are you saying Russia has a right to occupy Ukraine by force?

You’re avoiding my point on purpose I assume.
No I don’t think Russia has the right to invade another country by force…..however I’m willing to look at the conflict from both sides. I can see and understand how Russia might be nervous about NATO being brought on to its doorstep…and I can understand Russia wanting to side with the separatists in Donbas.
There are no good guys in this potential conflict.

 

[kiwiqpr]

You’re avoiding my point on purpose I assume.
No I don’t think Russia has the right to invade another country by force…..however I’m willing to look at the conflict from both sides. I can see and understand how Russia might be nervous about NATO being brought on to its doorstep…and I can understand Russia wanting to side with the separatists in Donbas.
There are no good guys in this potential conflict.

If Putin invades can he do it before the 22nd
Otherwise Nostradamus will be ****ing unbearable

 

[Staines R's]

If Putin invades can he do it before the 22nd
Otherwise Nostradamus will be ****ing unbearable

I like to be proved correct x

 

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[QPR Oslo]

How can a country be trusted that walks into one country after another and claims everyone who objects to their presence is a terrorist, and leaves absolute chaos behind them time and time again - all based on the flimsiest of evidence such as claims of weapons of mass destruction etc. etc. It appears that the Ukrainians are also irritated by the latest panic mongering from Washington (and their pet poodles in London) and feel that the sabre rattling is actually creating more insecurity than anything coming from Moscow. So it appears that Russia says it doesn't want to invade - Ukraine doesn't believe they will, only the CIA (who have been noted for their accurate and unbiased info in the past) believes it (or says so anyway).

But Cologne I don't think US/Nato have used military force in Europe for many, many years now. Those countries you mention who were once a part of the USSR boy, chose to join Nato I think? Russia has previous use of military force in taking both Crimea and supporting military action in East Ukraine, plus Georgia. Now they put over 100K of troops, heavy military equipment on not only its eastern border with Ukraine, but also in Belarus on Ukraines northern border, and military armed vessels to its south near Crimea. These big powers West and East need to calm, plus their media need to calm down. This procession of diplomatic visits to Moscow from different Countries with differing viewpoints should stop and be coordinated. Truss shouldn't be allowed out of her kennel. Brexit has clearly contributed to this situation with the UK now not just the US's poodle, but out of line with EU countries. All making Russian aggression easier.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

You’re avoiding my point on purpose I assume.
No I don’t think Russia has the right to invade another country by force…..however I’m willing to look at the conflict from both sides. I can see and understand how Russia might be nervous about NATO being brought on to its doorstep…and I can understand Russia wanting to side with the separatists in Donbas.
There are no good guys in this potential conflict.

Ok, let me address your points. Thatcher was wrong to support Pinochet, and she was wrong to give tacit approval to apartheid in S Africa. As you say, there are no good guys internationally - but there are some a lot worse than others.

Putin is living in the mid C20th where territorial gain is prized so highly. NATO has not gone out to recruit members. But it keep a door open, and no state should be denied membership because a bigger power says it should. Ukraine's population was mostly hostile to NATO, a remnant of the old Soviet mindset. Then after Ukraine pursued its own independence and a fledgling democracy, Putin invaded Ukraine in Crimea, and suddenly Ukraine's citizens wanted to protection NATO could offer. So Putin, not NATO has created this problem. And it really amuses me that posters on here are outraged by Boris Johnson who is getting hammered for Partygate, when something similar could never happen in Putin's Russia. The press, police and judiciary aren't independent of Putin's autocratic power and anyone who challenges it is imprisoned in Siberia or murdered. If any of the comments on this board about Boris, had been replicated in Russia about Putin, the posters would be taken away by the Russian security service, FSB.

As I have said, there are real parallels over the Ukraine issue, with Hitler at the end of the 1930s. Appeasers were saying, hell, what is Poland to us? If Hitler wants to extend his empire eastwards, who are we to complain? Didn't Britain have an Empire? We should keep quiet.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

Am I going to have to sit in a trench defending you old ****s?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

But Cologne I don't think US/Nato have used military force in Europe for many, many years now. Those countries you mention who were once a part of the USSR boy, chose to join Nato I think? Russia has previous use of military force in taking both Crimea and supporting military action in East Ukraine, plus Georgia. Now they put over 100K of troops, heavy military equipment on not only its eastern border with Ukraine, but also in Belarus on Ukraines northern border, and military armed vessels to its south near Crimea. These big powers West and East need to calm, plus their media need to calm down. This procession of diplomatic visits to Moscow from different Countries with differing viewpoints should stop and be coordinated. Truss shouldn't be allowed out of her kennel. Brexit has clearly contributed to this situation with the UK now not just the US's poodle, but out of line with EU countries. All making Russian aggression easier.

I was beginning to agree with this post, but it deteriorated rapidly. Brexit contributed to this situation? What rubbish! The UK have been supplying Ukraine with defensive armaments in case of Russian invasion. The UK would have done this whether in the EU or not. The UK is acting unilaterally - it doesn't even get on well with the Biden administration. And what has Germany done to help Ukraine? Sent them a few helmets. It's a joke. Germany's self interest is obvious - they want Russian gas. They want Nord Stream 2. It's cynical. In fact, much of the continent of Europe is dependent on Russian for energy, hence the policy of appeasement.

 

[Staines R's]

Ok, let me address your points. Thatcher was wrong to support Pinochet, and she was wrong to give tacit approval to apartheid in S Africa. As you say, there are no good guys internationally - but there are some a lot worse than others.

Putin is living in the mid C20th where territorial gain is prized so highly. NATO has not gone out to recruit members. But it keep a door open, and no state should be denied membership because a bigger power says it should. Ukraine's population was mostly hostile to NATO, a remnant of the old Soviet mindset. Then after Ukraine pursued its own independence and a fledgling democracy, Putin invaded Ukraine in Crimea, and suddenly Ukraine's citizens wanted to protection NATO could offer. So Putin, not NATO has created this problem. And it really amuses me that posters on here are outraged by Boris Johnson who is getting hammered for Partygate, when something similar could never happen in Putin's Russia. The press, police and judiciary aren't independent of Putin's autocratic power and anyone who challenges it is imprisoned in Siberia or murdered. If any of the comments on this board about Boris, had been replicated in Russia about Putin, the posters would be taken away by the Russian security service, FSB.

As I have said, there are real parallels over the Ukraine issue, with Hitler at the end of the 1930s. Appeasers were saying, hell, what is Poland to us? If Hitler wants to extend his empire eastwards, who are we to complain? Didn't Britain have an Empire? We should keep quiet.

So you actually agree with me then…..?

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

So you actually agree with me then…..?

You said the West is no better than Putin's Russia, and in some ways is a lot worse.

Certainly don't agree with that...

 

[Staines R's]

You said the West is no better than Putin's Russia, and in some ways is a lot worse.

Certainly don't agree with that...

So you agree with the first bit but not the rest ?
So the West is no worse ? Sorry I don’t realise it all went in a scale of despotic regimes armed and trained and assisted.
It’s of course personal opinion but when Western governments actively assist in the over throwing of legitimate, democratic governments all because they don’t agree with them….that’s right up there on the scale of bad

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

So you agree with the first bit but not the rest ?
So the West is no worse ? Sorry I don’t realise it all went in a scale of despotic regimes armed and trained and assisted.
It’s of course personal opinion but when Western governments actively assist in the over throwing of legitimate, democratic governments all because they don’t agree with them….that’s right up there on the scale of bad

Of course there is a scale. There are shades of grey (West) and there is black (Putin's Russia). We've agreed no country in the world is whiter than white

What legitimate democratic governments overthrown by the West are you talking about? Chile? The whole political history of Chile has holes in it, as communists battle the militant right.

But all this is whataboutery where Ukraine is concerned. Ukraine split from Russia. Russian invaded and took Crimea. Support in Ukraine for NATO grew as a result. Putin doesn't like this and seems to be on the verge of invading the whole of Ukraine, unless NATO changes its policy that sovereign nations can join NATO without interference from bigger bullying countries. NATO should not change its policy, but if it defers membership it might be enough to avoid bloodshed for now.

 

[colognehornet]

I was beginning to agree with this post, but it deteriorated rapidly. Brexit contributed to this situation? What rubbish! The UK have been supplying Ukraine with defensive armaments in case of Russian invasion. The UK would have done this whether in the EU or not. The UK is acting unilaterally - it doesn't even get on well with the Biden administration. And what has Germany done to help Ukraine? Sent them a few helmets. It's a joke. Germany's self interest is obvious - they want Russian gas. They want Nord Stream 2. It's cynical. In fact, much of the continent of Europe is dependent on Russian for energy, hence the policy of appeasement.

Germany cannot help Ukraine in anything more than a symbolic way Goldie - the thought of German weapons or soldiers being actively used against Russia is inconceivable - or have you forgotten the legacy of Stalingrad or the 20 million Soviet war dead ? In answer to another post of yours - I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the liberation of the Crimea was perfectly justifiable, in fact it prevented a bloodbath. The Ukrainian revolution actually removed their own constitution and in the absence of that only direct democracy was possible - the Crimeans voted to separate from the Ukraine in a perfectly democratic process - had the Russians not moved in then the Ukrainian army would have moved in to put down what they called insurrection and that would have caused much more bloodshed.

 

[QPR Oslo]

I was beginning to agree with this post, but it deteriorated rapidly. Brexit contributed to this situation? What rubbish! The UK have been supplying Ukraine with defensive armaments in case of Russian invasion. The UK would have done this whether in the EU or not. The UK is acting unilaterally - it doesn't even get on well with the Biden administration. And what has Germany done to help Ukraine? Sent them a few helmets. It's a joke. Germany's self interest is obvious - they want Russian gas. They want Nord Stream 2. It's cynical. In fact, much of the continent of Europe is dependent on Russian for energy, hence the policy of appeasement.

You just confirm my point about Brexit being a contributing factor in the non unified response from the various different European countries, the Ukraine, and the US. Russia can play them off against each other as it wishes, and can invade Ukraine knowing Ukraine will be left to defend itself. The US has said as much. Has Stoltenburg been to Moscow? All I hear about is various leaders and foreign or defense ministers going there with their own obviously varying views and Biden getting on the phone. The response to Putin appears not unified, disparate and weak. Brexit and the lack of unity in Europe which Brexit contributed to, have contributed to this.

 

[Staines R's]

Of course there is a scale. There are shades of grey (West) and there is black (Putin's Russia). We've agreed no country in the world is whiter than white

What legitimate democratic governments overthrown by the West are you talking about? Chile? The whole political history of Chile has holes in it, as communists battle the militant right.

But all this is whataboutery where Ukraine is concerned. Ukraine split from Russia. Russian invaded and took Crimea. Support in Ukraine for NATO grew as a result. Putin doesn't like this and seems to be on the verge of invading the whole of Ukraine, unless NATO changes its policy that sovereign nations can join NATO without interference from bigger bullying countries. NATO should not change its policy, but if it defers membership it might be enough to avoid bloodshed for now.

So you have no knowledge of USA involvement in countries such as Guatemala, Nicaragua or El Salvador ?

 

[bobmid]

Blimey, all this conversation is above my pay grade! Can we stick to law breaking parties???

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

Germany cannot help Ukraine in anything more than a symbolic way Goldie - the thought of German weapons or soldiers being actively used against Russia is inconceivable - or have you forgotten the legacy of Stalingrad or the 20 million Soviet war dead ? In answer to another post of yours - I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the liberation of the Crimea was perfectly justifiable, in fact it prevented a bloodbath. The Ukrainian revolution actually removed their own constitution and in the absence of that only direct democracy was possible - the Crimeans voted to separate from the Ukraine in a perfectly democratic process - had the Russians not moved in then the Ukrainian army would have moved in to put down what they called insurrection and that would have caused much more bloodshed.

The acid test for Germany will come on sanctions in the event of an invasion, Cologne. If it pulls back on these, and it seems to be already, then it will be clear that Scholz is putting it's economic interests first.

I think your reading of Crimea is hugely naive, but if you want to push the Putin line, that's up to you. It's known that Putin sent in his troops without insignia to foment unrest and aid the invasion. It's not for nothing that the international community imposed sanctions.

 

[Goldhawk-Road]

So you have no knowledge of USA involvement in countries such as Guatemala, Nicaragua or El Salvador ?

Are you saying these were fully functioning democracies?