Off Topic The Politics Thread

[Quite Possibly Raving]

Worth while looking at what some of Corbyn's policies were - far from Marxist, they were well accepted by the population and were also mainstream in many other countries - according to polling these are the percentages who were in favour of the following Labour policies: (The German figures are also in brackets, for comparison)

60% of country's heat and electricity from low carbon or renewable sources by 2030 - in favour 79% (Germany 66%)
Free University tuition - in favour 55% (Germany 72%)
Increasing tax for top 5% - in favour 68% (Germany 73%)
Rent price capping - in favour 74% (Germany 65%)
Not having nuclear weapons - in favour 40% (Germany 71%)
Business's made to reserve proportion of seats on board for workers - in favour 63% (Germany 64%)
Utilities like energy and water being owned and run by the state - in favour 57% (Germany 48%)
Railways owned by the state - in favour 60% (Germany 46%)
My country not taking part in military interventions overseas - in favour 52% (Germany 59%)

I think it's pretty clear that there was a basis of support for Corbyn on many of those topics which could be considered as left wing by some commentators, and the German figure shows that this is not uncommon, and in other western european countries such things are standard practice - the Tory press however considers them as Marxist So I think if we're looking for reasons why Corbyn lost then it probably lies elsewhere - namely that the Tories and their media allies managed to keep the focus fixed on Brexit at the expense of everything else.

I think that's a simplistic analysis for a few reasons:

- It doesn't account for all of the policies, excluding some which were ludicrous like threatening to steal patents from pharma companies or nationalising internet provision
- It doesn't account for the fact that one might support some of or many of these policies individually but not collectively (fearing feasibility)
- It doesn't really test if you support the policy when forced to trade off the expense of that policy (e.g. nationalising rail) against another area of spend like the NHS
- It doesn't account for the differing starting points of both countries (e.g. rent capping being standard practice in Germany and therefore not requiring drastic change)
- It's also easy to say something on paper (no war ever) and much harder when facing the realities
- It completely ignored all of Corbyn's personal polling ratings
- It ignores a swathe of anecdotal evidence
- It ignores that even the left leaning press like the New Statesman refused to endorse Corbyn
- It ignores that no leader of the Labour Party other than a moderate has won an election since 1974 has won an election, and frankly Wilson was fairly moderate so you could go further back than that

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. I genuinely want the left to learn the real and important lessons from this election, and ignoring the role of Corbyn, his sect, and the manifesto is extremely dangerous.

 

[kiwiqpr]

Come the next election I would imagine most labour supporters will go back to supporting labour

 

[colognehornet]

I think that's a simplistic analysis for a few reasons:

- It doesn't account for all of the policies, excluding some which were ludicrous like threatening to steal patents from pharma companies or nationalising internet provision
- It doesn't account for the fact that one might support some of or many of these policies individually but not collectively (fearing feasibility)
- It doesn't really test if you support the policy when forced to trade off the expense of that policy (e.g. nationalising rail) against another area of spend like the NHS
- It doesn't account for the differing starting points of both countries (e.g. rent capping being standard practice in Germany and therefore not requiring drastic change)
- It's also easy to say something on paper (no war ever) and much harder when facing the realities
- It completely ignored all of Corbyn's personal polling ratings
- It ignores a swathe of anecdotal evidence
- It ignores that even the left leaning press like the New Statesman refused to endorse Corbyn
- It ignores that no leader of the Labour Party other than a moderate has won an election since 1974 has won an election, and frankly Wilson was fairly moderate so you could go further back than that

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. I genuinely want the left to learn the real and important lessons from this election, and ignoring the role of Corbyn, his sect, and the manifesto is extremely dangerous.

A good post Raving. A couple of observations - it's not necessary to agree with all points on a parties manifesto to vote for them. Even party members rarely have more than 80% (at most) correlation between their own ideal and that of their party. The second point is that most people don't actually read through party manifestoes - at least not from start to finish. This is not meant as an insult because many simply do not have the time. The art of winning elections is to keep it short and snappy - and you can't get shorter than ''Let's get it done''. Labour's hundred odd page document on how they would cost everything was totally wasted for the simple reason that few actually read it.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

No one knows.

How is it relevant?

 

[Quite Possibly Raving]

A good post Raving. A couple of observations - it's not necessary to agree with all points on a parties manifesto to vote for them. Even party members rarely have more than 80% (at most) correlation between their own ideal and that of their party. The second point is that most people don't actually read through party manifestoes - at least not from start to finish. This is not meant as an insult because many simply do not have the time. The art of winning elections is to keep it short and snappy - and you can't get shorter than ''Let's get it done''. Labour's hundred odd page document on how they would cost everything was totally wasted for the simple reason that few actually read it.

I quite agree on both points. Labour certainly didn't have a captivating simple message which worked for them like "For the many" did in '17 and how "Get Brexit Done" did for the Tories did this time.

And agree on your first point, but I think the converse is true at the same time. You can agree with some or a lot of a policies in a manifesto but still not like the whole package. For example, I might like the sound of nationalised trains, energy, more money for health, and more green investments but collectively think it's impossible to finance. That's why I think it's dangerous to look at the popularity of individual policies and then aggregate them to say "Labour really does have a strong set of policies I agree with."

Think we're agreeing on those points from what you said!

 

[ELLERS]

Come the next election I would imagine most labour supporters will go back to supporting labour

I don't think they will. I was listening to some northeners on TV saying that things changed when they got a Tory council in. They are not used to a Tory MP. I think they will enjoy it.
With this majority I see the Tories getting at least 2 terms... 10 years to sort the country out.

 

[ELLERS]

Oh dear
Day one: Boris has said he is going reform the Supreme Court and Make Changes to the licence fees.

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[Star of David Bardsley]

Oh dear
Day one: Boris has said he is going reform the Supreme Court and Make Changes to the licence fees.

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Yeah mate this still isn’t a good thing. I don’t care how right or left you are this shouldn’t be cheered. This isn’t North Korea.

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

How is it relevant?

Just want to know what the big secret is. There must be some scandal there.

 

[YorkshireHoopster]

No contradiction by me, perhaps by Johnson though. That's the problem he has to face - 'one-nation' and no-deal are mutually exclusive.

The Tories succeeded in making this a Brexit election and that's the main reason they won, but Johnson is going to have to make progress in all kinds of areas aside from Brexit that have been ignored for the last three and a half years. Let's see him do some of the healing he has promised, starting with the NHS.

Not to mention the fact that Labour took its eye off the boil in the Northern heartlands which had all voted for Brexit. I recall you did not believe me when I suggested that Labour was in trouble up here. I live in Yorkshire but work in the North East primarily and regularly travel across the Pennines. The message was the same whichever industrial city you visited. My two secretaries, with a combined age of 131, both lifelong Labour supporters (miners daughters) both voted Conservative for the first and, I suspect, the last time.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

Just want to know what the big secret is. There must be some scandal there.

How is it relevant?

 

[Star of David Bardsley]

How is it relevant?

It might alter his image as a clean-living monk.

There are many things I’d like to be revealed ahead of something probably relatively trivial like this. The Russia report would be a start. Just find it weird how stuff like this used to be more than enough to end a politician and now if anything it endears him to his support.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

It might alter his image as a clean-living monk.

There are many things I’d like to be revealed ahead of something probably relatively trivial like this. The Russia report would be a start. Just find it weird how stuff like this used to be more than enough to end a politician and now if anything it endears him to his support.

How is it relevant?

 

[Turkish" Premier" Hoops]

I see the lunatic left, the great un washed balaclava wearing antifa crowd were out in London last night protesting and demanding Boris be replaced, why can’t these f*cking imbeciles behave.
Time for Boris to Buy some more water cannons and give these bastards a good hose down.
This unfortunately is what happens when you live in a society where winning is frowned upon in schools and everybody gets a medal just for turning up, where children are taught it’s not okay to lose and you must be offended if somebody does.

 

[Sooperhoop]

I see the lunatic left, the great un washed balaclava wearing antifa crowd were out in London last night protesting and demanding Boris be replaced, why can’t these f*cking imbeciles behave.
Time for Boris to Buy some more water cannons and give these bastards a good hose down.
This unfortunately is what happens when you live in a society where winning is frowned upon in schools and everybody gets a medal just for turning up, where children are taught it’s not okay to lose and you must be offended if somebody does.

It's the self-entitled millenials who can't accept democracy and think mob-rule will be the answer. We need French Police to deal with this sort of shyte...

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[Sooperhoop]

I think that's a simplistic analysis for a few reasons:

- It doesn't account for all of the policies, excluding some which were ludicrous like threatening to steal patents from pharma companies or nationalising internet provision
- It doesn't account for the fact that one might support some of or many of these policies individually but not collectively (fearing feasibility)
- It doesn't really test if you support the policy when forced to trade off the expense of that policy (e.g. nationalising rail) against another area of spend like the NHS
- It doesn't account for the differing starting points of both countries (e.g. rent capping being standard practice in Germany and therefore not requiring drastic change)
- It's also easy to say something on paper (no war ever) and much harder when facing the realities
- It completely ignored all of Corbyn's personal polling ratings
- It ignores a swathe of anecdotal evidence
- It ignores that even the left leaning press like the New Statesman refused to endorse Corbyn
- It ignores that no leader of the Labour Party other than a moderate has won an election since 1974 has won an election, and frankly Wilson was fairly moderate so you could go further back than that

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. I genuinely want the left to learn the real and important lessons from this election, and ignoring the role of Corbyn, his sect, and the manifesto is extremely dangerous.

I've really appreciated your measured analysis on here Raving, it cuts through so much of the nonsense elsewhere on here. Overall most people who were genuinely undecided would have looked at perhaps three or four key points amongst the headline promises and then made their decision based on the likely costs to themselves and their families...

 

[rangercol]

I think that's a simplistic analysis for a few reasons:

- It doesn't account for all of the policies, excluding some which were ludicrous like threatening to steal patents from pharma companies or nationalising internet provision
- It doesn't account for the fact that one might support some of or many of these policies individually but not collectively (fearing feasibility)
- It doesn't really test if you support the policy when forced to trade off the expense of that policy (e.g. nationalising rail) against another area of spend like the NHS
- It doesn't account for the differing starting points of both countries (e.g. rent capping being standard practice in Germany and therefore not requiring drastic change)
- It's also easy to say something on paper (no war ever) and much harder when facing the realities
- It completely ignored all of Corbyn's personal polling ratings
- It ignores a swathe of anecdotal evidence
- It ignores that even the left leaning press like the New Statesman refused to endorse Corbyn
- It ignores that no leader of the Labour Party other than a moderate has won an election since 1974 has won an election, and frankly Wilson was fairly moderate so you could go further back than that

I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. I genuinely want the left to learn the real and important lessons from this election, and ignoring the role of Corbyn, his sect, and the manifesto is extremely dangerous.

Excellent post.

 

[Uber_Hoop]

This type of thing tells you everything you need to know about a certain left-leaning political type that otherwise speaks of tolerance and inclusion.

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[Uber_Hoop]

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Positively Churchillian.

 

[Sooperhoop]

This type of thing tells you everything you need to know about a certain left-leaning political type that otherwise speaks of tolerance and inclusion.

You must log in or register to see images

This has been going on for some years now, there are certain comedians and performers who have been pro-Brexit who have basically been black-balled by the 'woke fraternity', Lee Hurst was a regular on BBC satire and comedy programmes but once he declared for Brexit his work virtually dried up and others who don't fit the anti-Tory profile will have a hard time getting on TV or radio. It's basically becoming a reverse form of McCarthyism but eventually there will be a backlash as left-wing comedy just isn't very funny...