Off Topic The Politics Thread

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Should the UK remain a part of the EU or leave?

  • Stay in

    Votes: 56 47.9%

  • Get out

    Votes: 61 52.1%
  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
I see Twitter is awash with various Labour factions basically tearing themselves apart over who is to blame. It seems though that the hard left that control the party will not countenance any softening of approach despite being massacred voter-wise outside the big cities. On that basis Starmer, Thornberry and any Centre Left candidate hasn't a hope. Early indications are Rebecca Long-Bailey being a possible with Richard Burgon as Deputy. If this is the case Labour could be looking at 10-20 years of opposition, there doesn't appear to be any stomach for moving away from what was virtually a Communist manifesto, they still think they are right and everyone else are thick racists, a great way to win hearts and minds...
 
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Sooperhoop said:
I see Twitter is awash with various Labour factions basically tearing themselves apart over who is to blame. It seems though that the hard left that control the party will not countenance any softening of approach despite being massacred voter-wise outside the big cities. On that basis Starmer, Thornberry and any Centre Left candidate hasn't a hope. Early indications are Rebecca Long-Bailey being a possible with Richard Burgon as Deputy. If this is the case Labour could be looking at 10-20 years of opposition, there doesn't appear to be any stomach for moving away from what was virtually a Communist manifesto, they still think they are right and everyone else are thick racists, a great way to win hearts and minds...
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I think that you need to do a bit more research on Communism before declaring it a Communist manifesto Sooper - it would have brought Britain into line with many other Western democracies had it been carried through, and was badly needed by the UK after so many years of austerity. The idea that Labour should move back closer to the centre is a fallacy, because their voters didn't desert them for centrist parties such as the independents or Lib Dems but rather for right wing populism. Labour lost badly for 2 reasons - Brexit and Corbyn. Brexit was always going to be their Achilles heel and the sitting on the fence posture trying to be a home for both remainer and leaver didn't work. As for Corbyn he was indecisive, lacked any form of charisma, or the leadership qualities which you would expect from a Prime minister in waiting - yes, he was destroyed by the media, but he never went out to establish a good relationship with them from his first day in office. Also Labour leaders must expect this from the media - it is part of the job. He was also carrying too much excess baggage around with him re. his past connections to people from Hamas, IRA, etc. The manifesto itself was superb - the problem was the messenger, and, that being the case, very few people would have actually read it.
 
colognehornet said:
I think that you need to do a bit more research on Communism before declaring it a Communist manifesto Sooper - it would have brought Britain into line with many other Western democracies had it been carried through, and was badly needed by the UK after so many years of austerity. The idea that Labour should move back closer to the centre is a fallacy, because their voters didn't desert them for centrist parties such as the independents or Lib Dems but rather for right wing populism. Labour lost badly for 2 reasons - Brexit and Corbyn. Brexit was always going to be their Achilles heel and the sitting on the fence posture trying to be a home for both remainer and leaver didn't work. As for Corbyn he was indecisive, lacked any form of charisma, or the leadership qualities which you would expect from a Prime minister in waiting - yes, he was destroyed by the media, but he never went out to establish a good relationship with them from his first day in office. Also Labour leaders must expect this from the media - it is part of the job. He was also carrying too much excess baggage around with him re. his past connections to people from Hamas, IRA, etc. The manifesto itself was superb - the problem was the messenger, and, that being the case, very few people would have actually read it.
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The manifesto was superb to those who follow that ideology, paying for it was the big problem. We've been over this ground from Day One, you and those on the left won't have a word against it. Perhaps telling the truth and saying 2-3 pence on standard income tax, 10-20 pence on top rate tax and the possibility of further raises when the borrowing has gone beyond the pale and unemployment has doubled would have looked more credible and perhaps would have appealed to those who frankly found the sums more in line with Jackanory...
 
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Sooperhoop said:
The manifesto was superb to those who follow that ideology, paying for it was the big problem. We've been over this ground from Day One, you and those on the left won't have a word against it. Perhaps telling the truth and saying 2-3 pence on standard income tax, 10-20 pence on top rate tax and the possibility of further raises when the borrowing has gone beyond the pale and unemployment has doubled would have looked more credible and perhaps would have appealed to those who frankly found the sums more in line with Jackanory...
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Labour did actually produce a 600 page long document on costing - the problem being that people were even less likely to read that than their manifesto. Also the exact costs of some of their policies have been over estimated, probably for political reasons. There has been an admission that the CBI figures on the cost of Labour's renaionalization plans were based on ''fabricated false information'' - even then they came out at 196 billion - just for want of comparison the cost of renewing Trident comes out at 205 billion. Mabye if we balance this out against the money allocated towards hard Brexit preparations, and lost investments as a result of Brexit uncertainty then we have a more balanced idea of Labour's spending - at least Labour's spending is on infrastucture for the future.
 
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Very revealing interview with Caroline Flint on why Labour lost. Her and other northern MPs were warning leadership they were failing since the last election and would lose at least 40 seats but Emily Thornberry told her we'll win Putney and Canterbury so it'll be worth it and also her voters were not as stupid as Flint's...
 
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Sooperhoop said:
Very revealing interview with Caroline Flint on why Labour lost. Her and other northern MPs were warning leadership they were failing since the last election and would lose at least 40 seats but Emily Thornberry told her we'll win Putney and Canterbury so it'll be worth it and also her voters were not as stupid as Flint's...
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Unbelievable arrogance runs through Labour's London metropolitan "elite". They've reaped what they sowed
 
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I have seen many studies of who voted for what based on social class, age and education but very few based on religious denomination. Harold Wilson once said that the origins of the Labour Party owed more to Methodism than to Marx, and he was right. The origins of the party are those of Christian Socialism. The only study I have seen of religious denomination and voting behaviour were for 2017 which showed that religion is still a factor in voting - with the highest Conservative vote being amongst those identifying as C of E, and now also Jewish. The highest Labour votes were from those identifying as Roman Catholic and 'other Christian denominations' such as Methodist, Baptist and Quaker (the last being the most conclusive) with also Moslems being inclined to Labour. Labour's finest leaders have been those who were in touch with the party's religious roots - even such a centrist leader as Tony Blair claimed to have got his political inspiration from the Bible. Labour's manifesto was actually one which would have been recognisable to any real Christian - far more so than it being Marxist. Labour's problem is that it's support base has crumbled in those very areas which once had 'community' and are now just poor. they were once a conscious politically organized industrial working class but are now just 'left behind'. Even the Methodist base of many working class communities in Wales has crumbled. So where does that leave Labour now - having to appeal to the 'new poor', a disorganized group which has nothing in common but their poverty. Labour does not just suffer because the centre of politics has moved to the right but also because the character of election campaigns has as well. Britain's election campaigns become more and more like American presidential campaigns with every election - where the focus is more and more on 'personality politics' and less and less on actual content. Personality politics does not rest easily for the left - for obvious reasons. The idea of there being such things as 'natural leaders' is an anathema for the left - and far more suited to the products of Eton and Harrow. They would much rather concentrate on policies (those ones which the electors don't actually read) - the electorate is becoming more interested in gladiatorial battles on TV - with the question '' Who won ?'' being the criteria - ie. who performed better in front of the cameras.
 
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