Off Topic The Politics Thread

[sb_73]

Here’s something which may fall out of the Leave/Remain stereotypes.

On leaving the EU, technically players from the EU should only join English clubs on the same basis that non EU foreign players do - that they are established internationals.

This is what the FA wants, as they think it would mean more opportunities for British players. It would mean players like Mahrez and Kante would not have come to play in England when they did, as they weren’t internationals when they were signed (great scouting by Leicester).

The PL and clubs want the opposite - a loosening of all the rules so any foreign player given a contract and in the 25 man squad would automatically get a work permit, regardless of where they came from.

On this one I’m with what would be considered the Brexit position, established internationals only (and preferably only 4 per squad).

The work permit rules are odd though. Before he could be appointed to manage Leeds, Bielsa (ex manager of Argentina, Chile, Bilbao, Marseilles, Lazio - for 2 days- and numerous top South American clubs) had to prove he was of sufficient ‘excellence’ to get a work permit from the football experts in the Home Office. He submitted a dossier detailing all the formations played in every championship game in the 2017-18 season, including in game variations, with a commentary on each, and the varying degrees of popularity and results gained with different formations. Obviously he passed the test. Bielsa, with whom I am developing a mild obsession, believes that there are 29 different formations (Col and Stroller - discuss) and that young players should experience them all.

 

[Stroller]

Westminster in lockdown after a car crashes/is driven into the barriers outside Parliament. Sounds like there are injuries, man arrested.

If it’s terrorism, doing it during summer recess may give an indication of the intelligence involved.

It's not terrorism, it was organised by the government to distract attention from the car crash inside Westminster.

 

[DT’s Socks]

Apparently there's something called "dark ads". If I've understood it correctly, it's the use of social media to send targeted ads to specific people that have been selected by harvesting the data we give away for free about ourselves. What it means in political campaigns is this...

Different people will get sent ads about different things but no-one gets to see all the ads or all the electoral promises. So, Dave might be told that voting for Fred will mean more money for car manufacturers (and social media data knows that Dave works in the car industry) whereas Joe will be told a vote for Fred will mean more money for stopping car use in cities (because social media data knows that Joe voted Green last time and is concerned about pollution).

So, both people will vote for Fred, despite the fact that maybe Joe would vote elsewhere if he realised that Fred wants to spend more on car making and Dave would maybe vote elsewhere if he knew Fred was promising to stop car use in cities.

That worries me. Who wants a situation where we all vote for Fred but none of us agrees on what issues we voted for - just who - and then we argue amongst ourselves about what a vote for Fred really was?

Excellent stuff

however algorithmic thinking in digital marketing has been around for a very long time. Regardless of subject matter most of us are subjected to it every day

Getting tighter with the front about privacy and data currently I am betting in most of our workplaces?

However it continues full blast believe me or not ... that depends if you believe what you read. Our eyes are nothing but targets

 

[DT’s Socks]

Here’s something which may fall out of the Leave/Remain stereotypes.

On leaving the EU, technically players from the EU should only join English clubs on the same basis that non EU foreign players do - that they are established internationals.

This is what the FA wants, as they think it would mean more opportunities for British players. It would mean players like Mahrez and Kante would not have come to play in England when they did, as they weren’t internationals when they were signed (great scouting by Leicester).

The PL and clubs want the opposite - a loosening of all the rules so any foreign player given a contract and in the 25 man squad would automatically get a work permit, regardless of where they came from.

On this one I’m with what would be considered the Brexit position, established internationals only (and preferably only 4 per squad).

The work permit rules are odd though. Before he could be appointed to manage Leeds, Bielsa (ex manager of Argentina, Chile, Bilbao, Marseilles, Lazio - for 2 days- and numerous top South American clubs) had to prove he was of sufficient ‘excellence’ to get a work permit from the football experts in the Home Office. He submitted a dossier detailing all the formations played in every championship game in the 2017-18 season, including in game variations, with a commentary on each, and the varying degrees of popularity and results gained with different formations. Obviously he passed the test. Bielsa, with whom I am developing a mild obsession, believes that there are 29 different formations (Col and Stroller - discuss) and that young players should experience them all.

I agree the man is a genius very jealous of Leeds at the moment

 

[Willhoops]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ies-final-say-second-referendum-a8488001.html

 

[Stroller]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ies-final-say-second-referendum-a8488001.html

Interesting that Boris Johnson's seat is one of those said to have switched to Remain. His majority was halved in the last GE.

 

[Staines R's]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ies-final-say-second-referendum-a8488001.html

Yeah ‘cos it’s not like opinion polls are ever wrong.

 

[sb_73]

Yeah ‘cos it’s not like opinion polls are ever wrong.

..and when you look at who commissioned this one and how it is being used it’s more like propaganda. There’s even a button to sign a petition on it in the Independent article. And it still only gives 53-47 in favour of Remain, which I am pretty sure was what the surveys said before the real referendum.

 

[DT’s Socks]

Yeah ‘cos it’s not like opinion polls are ever wrong.

Agree however I think at 52/48 we are talking the mother of all opinion polls

I can see this whole threatre heading for a vote on how we leave ... it has to happen
I truly believe the calamity of the governments handling must be orchestrated so it plays out for a final vote

If I am right then I am certain you will see a tide of young voters tip the balance in favour of a remain

Polls are often wrong but in this case the facts feel very real. Socialising last weekend there wasn’t one person at a large function who was a Brexiteer

Support for Brexit is reducing by the hour
It’s been designed to do so after the protest vote. The fear of a No Deal is sinking in imo

This is for our next generation and most have zero faith in UK politics but know this is a really bad idea

There is no plan after Brexit for anything and the youth understand the impact

 

[Stroller]

Quite an astute observation from Frankie Boyle I saw earlier.

This Corbyn story was probably being saved for the next election. As Boris is in a spot of bother, the timing is convenient.

Yes, and now it turns out the Lord Sheikh, the Muslim Tory peer who was highly critical of Johnson's burka bullshit, attended the same event that Corbyn is being slaughtered for. Convenient indeed.

 

[bc7]

Agree however I think at 52/48 we are talking the mother of all opinion polls

I can see this whole threatre heading for a vote on how we leave ... it has to happen
I truly believe the calamity of the governments handling must be orchestrated so it plays out for a final vote

If I am right then I am certain you will see a tide of young voters tip the balance in favour of a remain

Polls are often wrong but in this case the facts feel very real. Socialising last weekend there wasn’t one person at a large function who was a Brexiteer

Support for Brexit is reducing by the hour
It’s been designed to do so after the protest vote. The fear of a No Deal is sinking in imo

This is for our next generation and most have zero faith in UK politics but know this is a really bad idea

There is no plan after Brexit for anything and the youth understand the impact

If it happens, how do you think the EU would treat Britain? As the prodigal son returning, or as a naughty boy who needs punishing. My guess would be the latter (as was demonstrated when Cameron went to them asking for special treatment with regard to immigration).The country would need to be careful of what it wanted. Still not sure I believe all this 'Brexit is reducing by the hour' I've yet to meet a leaver who is now for remaining.

 

[Staines R's]

Agree however I think at 52/48 we are talking the mother of all opinion polls

I can see this whole threatre heading for a vote on how we leave ... it has to happen
I truly believe the calamity of the governments handling must be orchestrated so it plays out for a final vote

If I am right then I am certain you will see a tide of young voters tip the balance in favour of a remain

Polls are often wrong but in this case the facts feel very real. Socialising last weekend there wasn’t one person at a large function who was a Brexiteer

Support for Brexit is reducing by the hour
It’s been designed to do so after the protest vote. The fear of a No Deal is sinking in imo

This is for our next generation and most have zero faith in UK politics but know this is a really bad idea

There is no plan after Brexit for anything and the youth understand the impact

With respect Paul, just ‘cos you went to a function that no one admitted to being a ‘Brexiteer’ doesn’t mean the tide is turning......and just ‘cos a poll of around 15,000 people now want us to stay in doesn’t mean the whole country thinks so. I could give you many people, both young and old, who are now more behind Brexit than ever, even some that voted to stay but now want to leave, but then again I probably mix with different people than you.

I’m now tired of all this **** and as someone said earlier, it’s taking focus off of the more important things effecting this country like the NHS, the poor in society and social injustice.
Let’s just have another referendum and be finished with it finally, whatever the result.
Blair and Kinnock will be pleased I’m sure. (Sorry but I hate those two)

 

[QPR Oslo]

I I've yet to meet a leaver who is now for remaining.

There was one on my TV the other night. Where there is light there is hope.

 

[TheBigDipper]

I'm hearing the same narrative from several sources at the moment. It's this...

Mrs May will get the chance to kick the can down the road a bit longer, and we'll not leave in 2019 because we aren't ready and there won't be a deal in place. It's generally accepted that No Deal would cause all sides some damage in the short to medium term - although far more damage to the UK than any other individual EU27 country. The EU27 will grant us an extension to Article 50 so we can all take more time to work something out that works better. Mrs May will be hoping to retire before the next general election so she doesn't take the can for the failure to leave in a timely fashion or leave on better terms. Equally, she won't take the blame for putting the austerity-tired country into a self-induced heavy recession. The whole sorry mess will get blamed on Cameron.

I've no idea if this has any legs on it at all. What I do know is that a couple of people I've been debating Brexit with in another place (of all things, a music forum) have always been Leavers with decent reasons for leaving and the ability to debate without being insulting and back up their position with facts that they say gave them their point of view.

Now, they're hoping we do not leave - even predicting it - and have decided this narrative rings true for them. Why? They haven't changed their minds about preferring to be out of the EU rather than in. It's more that if the EU is the illness, they now believe the cure to be worse for us, the patient, in todays climate.

They just don't have any confidence in our current set of politicians (on all sides of the Brexit debate and in general) to be able to do a decent enough job to give the country a fighting chance of making a success of it. They think we should stay in the short term and take our time about leaving in the longer term. Some others then think that means we'll never leave.

Don't have a go at the messenger (me). I'm just relaying this because I'm interested to know if anyone else is hearing this and what they think. On both sides.

 

[bc7]

I'm hearing the same narrative from several sources at the moment. It's this...

Mrs May will get the chance to kick the can down the road a bit longer, and we'll not leave in 2019 because we aren't ready and there won't be a deal in place. It's generally accepted that No Deal would cause all sides some damage in the short to medium term - although far more damage to the UK than any other individual EU27 country. The EU27 will grant us an extension to Article 50 so we can all take more time to work something out that works better. Mrs May will be hoping to retire before the next general election so she doesn't take the can for the failure to leave in a timely fashion or leave on better terms. Equally, she won't take the blame for putting the austerity-tired country into a self-induced heavy recession. The whole sorry mess will get blamed on Cameron.

I've no idea if this has any legs on it at all. What I do know is that a couple of people I've been debating Brexit with in another place (of all things, a music forum) have always been Leavers with decent reasons for leaving and the ability to debate without being insulting and back up their position with facts that they say gave them their point of view.

Now, they're hoping we do not leave - even predicting it - and have decided this narrative rings true for them. Why? They haven't changed their minds about preferring to be out of the EU rather than in. It's more that if the EU is the illness, they now believe the cure to be worse for us, the patient, in todays climate.

They just don't have any confidence in our current set of politicians (on all sides of the Brexit debate and in general) to be able to do a decent enough job to give the country a fighting chance of making a success of it. They think we should stay in the short term and take our time about leaving in the longer term. Some others then think that means we'll never leave.

Don't have a go at the messenger (me). I'm just relaying this because I'm interested to know if anyone else is hearing this and what they think. On both sides.

I live in an affluent, very strong remain area (62% v 38%). In this type of area, I would expect more people to switch from leave to remain after debating with lots of remainers (friends,relatives etc). In other, less affluent areas, I would imagine the leave stance would have strengthened. This is just my opinion and has no more weight than the guesswork or even polling of anyone else.

 

[TheBigDipper]

I live in an affluent, very strong remain area (62% v 38%). In this type of area, I would expect more people to switch from leave to remain after debating with lots of remainers (friends,relatives etc). In other, less affluent areas, I would imagine the leave stance would have strengthened. This is just my opinion and has no more weight than the guesswork or even polling of anyone else.

Yes, I'd can see that could be quite likely. FWIW, in face-to-face discussion, no-one I know is changing their mind about their choice. I live in a relatively affluent pro-Leave area, BTW - Christchurch, Dorset. It's mainly on the Internet, from across the country, that I'm getting this input.

 

[KooPeeArr]

They just don't have any confidence in our current set of politicians (on all sides of the Brexit debate and in general) to be able to do a decent enough job to give the country a fighting chance of making a success of it. They think we should stay in the short term and take our time about leaving in the longer term.

I can completely see this viewpoint but from a remainer perspective.

I (mostly) accept the result and would have an easier time embracing a Brexit if I had any confidence in this generation of politicians to make a go of it (from any party).

I would willingly accept the aforementioned Jersey type deal which would offer us some shelter while we set out to negotiate trade deals and could leave from there at the best moment for us as a country (I'd suspect several years time when hopefully the current crop of politicians have gone).

This would have the best chance of seeing Brexit delivered IMO but without recklessness.

I feel that a push by the rightmost Brexiteers for a cliff-edge, no-deal scenario actually increases the chance of a second referendum which I would embrace in such circumstances but a compromised, staged approach would appease me and, I'm sure, many remainders.

 

[ELLERS]

Ah bless they think the tide is turning and they are trying to overturn the will of the people. Sorry lads it won't happen and there won't be a second vote. Move on and stop day dreaming.

 

[sb_73]

I'm hearing the same narrative from several sources at the moment. It's this...

Mrs May will get the chance to kick the can down the road a bit longer, and we'll not leave in 2019 because we aren't ready and there won't be a deal in place. It's generally accepted that No Deal would cause all sides some damage in the short to medium term - although far more damage to the UK than any other individual EU27 country. The EU27 will grant us an extension to Article 50 so we can all take more time to work something out that works better. Mrs May will be hoping to retire before the next general election so she doesn't take the can for the failure to leave in a timely fashion or leave on better terms. Equally, she won't take the blame for putting the austerity-tired country into a self-induced heavy recession. The whole sorry mess will get blamed on Cameron.

I've no idea if this has any legs on it at all. What I do know is that a couple of people I've been debating Brexit with in another place (of all things, a music forum) have always been Leavers with decent reasons for leaving and the ability to debate without being insulting and back up their position with facts that they say gave them their point of view.

Now, they're hoping we do not leave - even predicting it - and have decided this narrative rings true for them. Why? They haven't changed their minds about preferring to be out of the EU rather than in. It's more that if the EU is the illness, they now believe the cure to be worse for us, the patient, in todays climate.

They just don't have any confidence in our current set of politicians (on all sides of the Brexit debate and in general) to be able to do a decent enough job to give the country a fighting chance of making a success of it. They think we should stay in the short term and take our time about leaving in the longer term. Some others then think that means we'll never leave.

Don't have a go at the messenger (me). I'm just relaying this because I'm interested to know if anyone else is hearing this and what they think. On both sides.

I think that sounds like a credible scenario, though I have no insight into any changing views in the country etc. I don’t really trust any of the polls/surveys. The advantage of this idea is that it avoids the cliff edge next March, the big downside is that it stretches out the horrible arguments well into the future. I’d prefer it if we made a big push to get it sorted now, either with a deal or a signed off exit treaty and on to WTO with the intention of negotiating a Canada type deal.

As Stainsey says the longer this rubbish goes on the more everything else is ignored.

If it happens, how do you think the EU would treat Britain? As the prodigal son returning, or as a naughty boy who needs punishing. My guess would be the latter (as was demonstrated when Cameron went to them asking for special treatment with regard to immigration).The country would need to be careful of what it wanted. Still not sure I believe all this 'Brexit is reducing by the hour' I've yet to meet a leaver who is now for remaining.

It might give some leverage if we said now, ok if we stay in we want to retain the rebate, whatever Cameron negotiated, all of the opt outs we have etc etc and perhaps some new stuff on freedom of movement, and be prepared to walk away if we don’t get them. I have no doubt if we ask to go back after leaving we won’t get any concessions, not sure I’d call it punishment, more a levelling out of terms and conditions. Thatcher really did a sensational job (I say through gritted teeth) on the budget.

 

[bc7]

I think that sounds like a credible scenario, though I have no insight into any changing views in the country etc. I don’t really trust any of the polls/surveys. The advantage of this idea is that it avoids the cliff edge next March, the big downside is that it stretches out the horrible arguments well into the future. I’d prefer it if we made a big push to get it sorted now, either with a deal or a signed off exit treaty and on to WTO with the intention of negotiating a Canada type deal.

As Stainsey says the longer this rubbish goes on the more everything else is ignored.

It might give some leverage if we said now, ok if we stay in we want to retain the rebate, whatever Cameron negotiated, all of the opt outs we have etc etc and perhaps some new stuff on freedom of movement, and be prepared to walk away if we don’t get them. I have no doubt if we ask to go back after leaving we won’t get any concessions, not sure I’d call it punishment, more a levelling out of terms and conditions. Thatcher really did a sensational job (I say through gritted teeth) on the budget.

This is the EU you're talking about. Can't see them offering anything.
The problem with the above scenario is that if this was pushed further into the future, the less inclined remainers would be to help get a sensible deal (they would feel the whole thing could be stopped) and leavers would feel their views have been wiped out. I believe this would cause even more resentment and create the conditions for extremists (especially, but not limited to right wingers, to become a powerful force.
It is enjoyable to debate this sensibly though, rather than just being called a thick racist.