Off Topic The Politics Thread

[GoldhawkRoad]

It's not an easy thing to do, and the EU will use all its power against recalcitrants. I doubt there's anyone in Parliament that would do a better job (Jezza, Dianne and Emily anyone?), which is a poor indictment, but then there's scarcely a country in Europe that doesn't have its problems

 

[sb_73]

It's not an easy thing to do, and the EU will use all its power against recalcitrants. I doubt there's anyone in Parliament that would do a better job (Jezza, Dianne and Emily anyone?), which is a poor indictment, but then there's scarcely a country in Europe that doesn't have its problems

I think you are right about the quality in Parliament and that makes your post one of the most depressing ever, as the ones who are allegedly running everything are a complete disgrace. Truly the worst government I can remember, in terms of stature and competence of its members and what it is actually achieving (not just Brexit). Government, opposition the whole lot of themgive democracy a bad name. As we are trying to strike out boldy on our own it’s not good enough to say everyone else has problems so we’re no worse off.

 

[ELLERS]

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does emma check anything
apparently this 97 year old is homeless because of the bastard torys

The lady that @emmadentcoad and others are trying to highlight, and use to attack the Conservatives here is an American lady living in California.
she died in 2009

I was going to say before I read your comments that this is clearly staged. They do it with Brexit stuff as well.

 

[sb_73]

I was going to say before I read your comments that this is clearly staged. They do it with Brexit stuff as well.

They got the idea from some bloke who wrote lies on the side of a bus.

Emma Dent Coad is a lesser spotted reptile, a useless rent-a-gob waste of space.

 

[QPRNUTS]

The out of his depth Irish leader isn't helping either mate.

Don’t think he’s out of his depth at all. Banging the same consistent drum. The rumblings from London are changing on a daily basis. We’re entitled to stand our ground. Free trade and movement for us with the UK and NI is vital.
It’s hard for Europe to know what Britain wants when Britain doesn’t know her self. No concrete plan let alone options have been submitted for consideration. I honestly think it’s May that’s out of her depth. And Johnston not too far behind. He doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.
Britain needs the single market. Britain are trying to reach a trade agreement with India, but India is insisting on it including people. No agreement reached yet. Britain are trying to copy the EU agreement with China and no agreement has been reached and the Americans have clearly said that any agreement with them will only be on their terms.
It’s interesting to watch it all unfolding. The grass may not be greener on the other side.

 

[rangercol]

Don’t think he’s out of his depth at all. Banging the same consistent drum. The rumblings from London are changing on a daily basis. We’re entitled to stand our ground. Free trade and movement for us with the UK and NI is vital.
It’s hard for Europe to know what Britain wants when Britain doesn’t know her self. No concrete plan let alone options have been submitted for consideration. I honestly think it’s May that’s out of her depth. And Johnston not too far behind. He doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.
Britain needs the single market. Britain are trying to reach a trade agreement with India, but India is insisting on it including people. No agreement reached yet. Britain are trying to copy the EU agreement with China and no agreement has been reached and the Americans have clearly said that any agreement with them will only be on their terms.
It’s interesting to watch it all unfolding. The grass may not be greener on the other side.

We won't agree on this mate. I'll leave it there.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

I'd say it's 30% us and 70% them.

I would say you voted for it you sort it out

You pay for it

 

[sb_73]

Don’t think he’s out of his depth at all. Banging the same consistent drum. The rumblings from London are changing on a daily basis. We’re entitled to stand our ground. Free trade and movement for us with the UK and NI is vital.
It’s hard for Europe to know what Britain wants when Britain doesn’t know her self. No concrete plan let alone options have been submitted for consideration. I honestly think it’s May that’s out of her depth. And Johnston not too far behind. He doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.
Britain needs the single market. Britain are trying to reach a trade agreement with India, but India is insisting on it including people. No agreement reached yet. Britain are trying to copy the EU agreement with China and no agreement has been reached and the Americans have clearly said that any agreement with them will only be on their terms.
It’s interesting to watch it all unfolding. The grass may not be greener on the other side.

Theresa May needs permission to do anything in her historically weak position, and is immersed in multiple parallel and interwoven negotiations on Brexit - with her own Cabinet, with the Parliamentary Tory Party and factions within it, the full Tory Party in the country, the DUP, Parliament, British employers and Brexit voters (those of us who didn’t vote for Brexit about the only ones excluded from this labyrinthine process). There is no vision or strategy, just a series of internal trade offs which are constantly revisited. This is before she even gets to sit down with the EU, as represented by Tusk. The EU itself has a torturous job in keeping 27 countries with a common stance, which leads to Barnier not really being able to negotiate much at all - he has a script which it would take an age to change, but it would have been easier if the U.K. had a clear position.

It’s a recipe for no progress and collapse in confusion rather than collapse on some kind of principle. After which we in the U.K. could end up with an ideologically driven hard left Labour Government and in even deeper ****.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

The out of his depth Irish leader isn't helping either mate.

Don’t talk rubbish as a Englishman you cannot say anything at the moment
We should all be embarrassed about this

 

[QPRNUTS]

Theresa May needs permission to do anything in her historically weak position, and is immersed in multiple parallel and interwoven negotiations on Brexit - with her own Cabinet, with the Parliamentary Tory Party and factions within it, the full Tory Party in the country, the DUP, Parliament, British employers and Brexit voters (those of us who didn’t vote for Brexit about the only ones excluded from this labyrinthine process). There is no vision or strategy, just a series of internal trade offs which are constantly revisited. This is before she even gets to sit down with the EU, as represented by Tusk. The EU itself has a torturous job in keeping 27 countries with a common stance, which leads to Barnier not really being able to negotiate much at all - he has a script which it would take an age to change, but it would have been easier if the U.K. had a clear position.

It’s a recipe for no progress and collapse in confusion rather than collapse on some kind of principle. After which we in the U.K. could end up with an ideologically driven hard left Labour Government and in even deeper ****.

The Irish Government is starting to come under considerable pressure here from the opposition, media and the business sector. The argument is that not enough is being done by Govt to future proof our vulnerable economy against Brexit. I actually think our Govt has shown considerable patience with London as bilateral negotiations continue. The problem is a lack of any actual plan to support. It’s obviously in the best interests of both our Govts to find a solution but Mays complete dependence on the DUP is the flaw. This has invariably ruled out many of the more obvious solutions.
Our Govt waited and waited for a workable solution/plan to be submitted. But as of yet, nothing. As a tiny largely irrelevant county it’s time for us to play the only ace we have. That’s our veto. This was discussed with London months and months ago. We can’t find a solution with a country that simply doesn’t know what it wants.

 

[QPRNUTS]

We won't agree on this mate. I'll leave it there.

Fair enough Col

 

[sb_73]

The Irish Government is starting to come under considerable pressure here from the opposition, media and the business sector. The argument is that not enough is being done by Govt to future proof our vulnerable economy against Brexit. I actually think our Govt has shown considerable patience with London as bilateral negotiations continue. The problem is a lack of any actual plan to support. It’s obviously in the best interests of both our Govts to find a solution but Mays complete dependence on the DUP is the flaw. This has invariably ruled out many of the more obvious solutions.
Our Govt waited and waited for a workable solution/plan to be submitted. But as of yet, nothing. As a tiny largely irrelevant county it’s time for us to play the only ace we have. That’s our veto. This was discussed with London months and months ago. We can’t find a solution with a country that simply doesn’t know what it wants.

Sadly I have to ‘like’ that post.

We can trace all this back to Cameron and his immense arrogance and naivity. There are many who mock repeated referenda to get the ‘right’ result, but it’s simply a way to negotiate and get concessions, as Ireland proved. We had a non binding referendum which was instantly interpreted as a once only definitive decision. Cameron walked instead of doing what a statesman would and realise that his hand with the EU had actually been strengthened - he could have gone back, negotiated more and I’m sure got a large part of what he wanted, with the explicit threat of ‘we’re off unless we see movement’. Then gone back for a second referendum and if we were still daft enough to vote out, walked at that stage.

Now the whole of Europe is suffering the consequences of Tory party infighting.

 

[QPRNUTS]

Sadly I have to ‘like’ that post.

We can trace all this back to Cameron and his immense arrogance and naivity. There are many who mock repeated referenda to get the ‘right’ result, but it’s simply a way to negotiate and get concessions, as Ireland proved. We had a non binding referendum which was instantly interpreted as a once only definitive decision. Cameron walked instead of doing what a statesman would and realise that his hand with the EU had actually been strengthened - he could have gone back, negotiated more and I’m sure got a large part of what he wanted, with the explicit threat of ‘we’re off unless we see movement’. Then gone back for a second referendum and if we were still daft enough to vote out, walked at that stage.

Now the whole of Europe is suffering the consequences of Tory party infighting.

That sb is unfortunately spot on.

 

[ELLERS]

Sadly I have to ‘like’ that post.

We can trace all this back to Cameron and his immense arrogance and naivity. There are many who mock repeated referenda to get the ‘right’ result, but it’s simply a way to negotiate and get concessions, as Ireland proved. We had a non binding referendum which was instantly interpreted as a once only definitive decision. Cameron walked instead of doing what a statesman would and realise that his hand with the EU had actually been strengthened - he could have gone back, negotiated more and I’m sure got a large part of what he wanted, with the explicit threat of ‘we’re off unless we see movement’. Then gone back for a second referendum and if we were still daft enough to vote out, walked at that stage.

I can go with that.
Sadly successive governments gave away too much power to Brussels and when Davey Cam had the chance to get a better deal, he wimped out. Saying that his hands were tied. But yes if he had stayed on and then gone back, they would have buckled and given us a better deal.

Now the whole of Europe is suffering the consequences of Tory party infighting.

Don't be silly, you know that is not true.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

Cameron walked instead of doing what a statesman would and realise that his hand with the EU had actually been strengthened - he could have gone back, negotiated more and I’m sure got a large part of what he wanted, with the explicit threat of ‘we’re off unless we see movement’.

Don't bet on this. Brussels is incredibly inflexible. There was nothing to stop the EU offering Theresa May a deal to prevent Brexit. Not a murmur from them

 

[sb_73]

Don't be silly, you know that is not true.

Not to mention the amount of time and energy they are spending trying to work out something that they didn’t want, as you (or it may have been Goldie) have repeatedly pointed out they are going to be worse off in terms of EU budget and in terms of trade, probably. No winners in this, but the EU recognises that and has done since day one.

Don't bet on this. Brussels is incredibly inflexible. There was nothing to stop the EU offering Theresa May a deal to prevent Brexit. Not a murmur from them

As soon as she was annointed, election free, to be PM, May started going on about the ‘will of the people’ and drawing ‘red lines’, ruling out all sorts of elements that the EU could have offered. They probably thought ‘what’s the point?’ especially as the U.K. government made it crystal clear that they wanted to see it through.

It’s a fact that the three times countries have held repeat referenda on EU issues (Ireland twice and Denmark), concessions were made before the second referendum.

 

[GoldhawkRoad]

It’s a fact that the three times countries have held repeat referenda on EU issues (Ireland twice and Denmark), concessions were made before the second referendum.

Yes, but these were offered by the EU to bring the countries' citizens on side. The EU offered us nothing post-referendum and were never going to because it would mean breaching the Four Pillars. Neither Cameron nor May could ever have done anything about these. The gulf between the UK's requirements and the EU's intractable rules was made clear then and is clear now

 

[ELLERS]

As soon as she was annointed, election free, to be PM, May started going on about the ‘will of the people’ and drawing ‘red lines’, ruling out all sorts of elements that the EU could have offered. They probably thought ‘what’s the point?’

sb why are you so one-sided and deluded? Seriously you must remember all the threats made by the EU regarding Brexit... please tell me you haven't put your head so far in the ground that you cant remember all the crap that they were saying?
They were making threats before the vote, during the vote and after the vote. That is fact and I will post all the crap they have said if you want... although I will be here all week. You need to look at both sides of things.

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

I can go with that.
Sadly successive governments gave away too much power to Brussels and when Davey Cam had the chance to get a better deal, he wimped out. Saying that his hands were tied. But yes if he had stayed on and then gone back, they would have buckled and given us a better deal.


Don't be silly, you know that is not true.

I am with SB on this it's spot on ... The Cons are in power and representing the will of the people well 52% of them and therefore it's accurate to say they are cocking up ... Both sides of the Ref vote must be frustrated with how things are panning out. This to me is just about Brexiteers on here trying to defend or deflect blame elsewhere. The facts are it's a cock up and about time a few posters took a couple of humble body punches that it is a cock up of our own making ...

The problems
Made in the UK

 

[Lawrence Jacoby]

sb why are you so one-sided and deluded? Seriously you must remember all the threats made by the EU regarding Brexit... please tell me you haven't put your head so far in the ground that you cant remember all the crap that they were saying?
They were making threats before the vote, during the vote and after the vote. That is fact and I will post all the crap they have said if you want... although I will be here all week. You need to look at both sides of things.

One sided? This to me is about the realisation to many that this is a very complex matter and a telling the EU to F off or historically cherry pick comments against the EU is also one sided. we signed up legally for membership which i respect as well as i respect and understand better each day why this vote was used as a protest vote. Sides were very close at 52/48 and there is your answer ... our answer to why there is division. None of even now what today's figures would be ... I would bet my money on 70 -30 to remain. This country is wildly divided and has a mess of regional division that is our problem and I as a southerner am very much responsible for that