I've said this before, but Cameron is hugely aware of his legacy. He doesn't want to be the PM that takes the UK out of the EU, and possibly breaks up the UK too when Scotland leaves
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I've said this before, but Cameron is hugely aware of his legacy. He doesn't want to be the PM that takes the UK out of the EU, and possibly breaks up the UK too when Scotland leaves
The people of Calais have been hugely tolerant. If I was living there, I'd have a dummy of Hollande hanging by his neck from an upper window
TWGWTDT
Well-Known Member
Well we all have to make our own minds up from the media we are dished. I know one thing for a fact however the English are worrying about a small pinprick in France more than the French are.
It makes sub headlines in France because the message is clear from France ... If you come to France and would like to stay show us exactly why? You need to to prove your worth to be granted residency and will be expected to absorb and understand the country you are in.
Bedrock Principles that I agree and respect and cannot stand anyone English people abroad who make reference back to how things should be done inline to the UK way
The U.K. way is lost and drifting IMO
Migrants in the Calais area have not on the whole ****ed about with local life for the French. The reason is clear you step out of line and break their laws expect to be hit hard. Again I believe in that principle
It's a well known fact to the French that the migrant route to the UK is for one main reason ... The system is weak and human beings looking for a better life target the UK for that very reason. The system for people roaming the streets in France is very different than the UK it's not tolerated
But their is a liberty also that the UK will never get
Surely Calais is of less concern to the French than us because they are trying to get here?
Can we push them on to Ireland?
Really millions more into EU ???
Youth unemployment in EU (ie under 25) as of Dec 2015:
Greece 48%
Spain 46%
Italy 38%
France 26%
EU 20%
GB 13.5%
Germany 7%
Beautiful villages in Somme ? With job prospects for youth ??
http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/
EU Finances (Source - Her Majesty's Treasury)
UK contribution 2015: £17.9 bn
UK revenue from EU:
£4.9bn UK correction rebate
£4.4bn Regional and agricultural subsidies
£1.4bn Grants to private companies
Net contribution: £7.1bn or less than 7% of NHS funding. And nothing like the £20bn or £350m a week consistently claimed by the Brexiters.
I have not heard how the Brexit campaigners would spend this bounty. Presumably maintain the regional, agricultural and company grants, with the plus being that Westminster rather than Brussels controls them, a sort of 'devil you know' advantage. Also presume the 'correction' cash is already factored into general government spending, which will be £759.5bn this year (making what we spend on the EU less than 1% of our outlay). Tax cuts? More on health? Ideas on a postcard please.
Of course, if the 'stay' campaign was doing anything else than fear mongering I wouldn't be posting tedious fact based stuff like this. Just an attempt to point out that it's not expensive in relative terms, the decision is about whether we want to be a part of this club, not the membership fees.
On reflection £7.1bn as the price of entry to a free trade area doesn't seem like to bad a deal.
UK contribution 2015: £17.9 bn
UK revenue from EU:
£4.9bn UK correction rebate
£4.4bn Regional and agricultural subsidies
£1.4bn Grants to private companies
Net contribution: £7.1bn or less than 7% of NHS funding. And nothing like the £20bn or £350m a week consistently claimed by the Brexiters.
I have not heard how the Brexit campaigners would spend this bounty. Presumably maintain the regional, agricultural and company grants, with the plus being that Westminster rather than Brussels controls them, a sort of 'devil you know' advantage. Also presume the 'correction' cash is already factored into general government spending, which will be £759.5bn this year (making what we spend on the EU less than 1% of our outlay). Tax cuts? More on health? Ideas on a postcard please.
Of course, if the 'stay' campaign was doing anything else than fear mongering I wouldn't be posting tedious fact based stuff like this. Just an attempt to point out that it's not expensive in relative terms, the decision is about whether we want to be a part of this club, not the membership fees.
On reflection £7.1bn as the price of entry to a free trade area doesn't seem like to bad a deal.
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On a net basis, which is clearly the relevant basis, the UK has been second biggest contributor. See:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html
Here's why I don't agree with you that Howard's comments are "clueless". In the event of an OUT vote, when the EU leaders have got over the shock and initial panic, Merkel and Hollande will sit down with Cameron on a damage (to the EU project) limitation basis. Then they will start to do what the EU does best - fudge. Concessions will be offered and some workable compromise sought. Sure, no member state has ever left, but the precedents of members being offered concessions after "unhelpful" referendum results are there for all to see. The UK may be able to negotiate something like a Common Market arrangement, where the sovereignty of our parliament and the final word of our Supreme Court will be preserved. It will cost us money but not anything like what we are paying now. All this will take place long before Article 50 is triggered in my view.
As Peter Hitchens says the EU is like Hotel California - you can check out, but you can never leave.
I think Article 50 will kick in as soon at the Government legislates to leave, so you may be right, there might be a careful delay in that to allow some horse trading. Whatever their personal views presumably MPs wouldn't dare vote against the result of a referendum. If they did I guess it would spark a vote of no confidence in the Government and an election, though Corbyn may not have the wit to spot this.
I'm interested to learn about the concessions given after referenda in another countries, please share a couple.
Compromise and 'fudging' are what politics is all about, in democracies anyway.
Ireland's the obvious example on concessions. It voted in a referendum against the Treat of Lisbon in 2008 - there were certain objections including matters of abortion and military neutrality. Guarantees were given by the EU and Ireland voted again in 2009, and voted yes this time. I'm sure Finglas or one of the other Irish posters can give a more comprehensive reply.
I believe there was also concessions offered to Denmark. I'll post on this if I can find something
Denmark obtained concessions after a referendum on Maastricht:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1992
Surely Cameron got all the concessions he was seeking, so in the event of an Out vote what further concessions should Prime Minister Johnson seek that would be enough to turn the vote around?
I could show people around Dorset, has hardly changed since the Magna Carta. Interesting to read this morning that EU citizens are claiming an estimated £1b in unemployment benefits in the UK. Welcome to the hotel California, such a lovely place . . .
Absolute sovereignty of the UK Parliament and our Supreme Court to be the ultimate arbiter - no appeals to foreign courts
Perhaps we could become an associate member of the EU that enables trade with and by EU countries, means we share information on security, crime, scientific advances etc but take back control of our borders. EU citizens come and work here at our invitation, and we do likewise in EU countries, not of right. We make a fixed contribution to the running of the EU. So, something much more akin to the Common Market. This would allow the Euro country integration to continue unhindered
Is your position softening Goldie? That is very similar to Norway and Switzerland position.
I don't think I've softened. I'm 100% in favour of cooperating with European countries and/or the EU - I just don't want to be ruled by them. And I want the UK to be free to reach trade deals with the rest of the world and not face the restrictions that we do now.
We would be like Norway or Switzerland, as a type of associate - but the terms we get, as the 5th biggest economy in the world, should be greatly more favourable
