The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 10th January)

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Think the term mental fragility used earlier is 100% right. Llorente was brilliant and looked a baller in season 1, Struijk was doing fantastic right up until he was wrongly sent off for hurting the scouser he never really got back to his best. Koch was good but too much in and out through illness and injury just like Llorente. I see the whole defensive unit being mentally fragile as if wearing that shirt is too much at home. Any slight mistake from one of them they seem to collapse, we were all over Cardiff until Struijk stupid back passs and then he lost his man and then he was gone. Llorente made an error and it took him an age to find his mojo again.

The Kristensenand Aaronson problems I believe can only be explained by them being told to do something they have never been asked to do before by Marsch. I get the feeling these ex Marsch players need to sort Marsch out

The only defender that doesn't suffer from low confidence is Cooper and that's why he's always first pick. The problem with Cooper is that he's not quite good enough at this level. It was interesting listening to Marsch talk about Wober after the Cardiff game where he said that you can rely on him to take responsibility and do the brave things. Reading inbetween the lines I think he is talking about confidence and not playing scared. It was pretty clear to me that he wanted Wober to come in because he won't wilt under the pressure.

The Kristensen and Aaronson problems are strange because they both have the talent. They both care and they both give everything they have at every moment they have on the pitch.

Kristensen has been vocal about him struggling to adapt to the pace of the league and that's pretty honest of him. He's a physical specimen and I think he might kick on as he adjusts. He has improved recently.

Aaronson clearly has a lot going for him. He finds space, makes clever runs in dangerous areas and is unselfish. He's fairly quick, a great presser of the ball and has quick feet. I think his early success has made him a target and teams have started leaning on him a bit more and they usually crowd him out. He's a bit small and weak and probably doesn't get the free kicks he deserves because of the way he goes down and throws his arms about. He's still a great signing in my eyes but teams have found his weakness which is his physical strength. He's young, he'll learn from this spell and I believe he has the skill set to be an asset for us. It might have to be in a wider role for now where he will attract less attention. Needs some steak down him and a few weights sessions.
 
Evening all.
If a new LB on his first start for us had a shot that needed to be handled away on the line, giving us a pen, and then played a neat flick to get us the equaliser you'd be peeing your pants over him.
Our CB pairing looked lost without Cooper.

Just saying.

...and yet both Cardiff goals came from the left side of defence where a left back should either be or giving some kind of cover.

Maybe Firpo could be the new Pablo with all his creativity.
 
...and yet both Cardiff goals came from the left side of defence where a left back should either be or giving some kind of cover.

Maybe Firpo could be the new Pablo with all his creativity.
I do think he's got potential as a LWB. Maybe not Pablo but the new Gareth Bale :)

Seriously though, no one gives him an inch. Even when he has a good game, where he had more impact going forward than most of our forwards, especially Joffy, he's still slated. I'm not saying he's good but credit where credits due.
 
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I do think he's got potential as a LWB. Maybe not Pablo but the new Gareth Bale :)

Seriously though, no one gives him an inch. Even when he has a good game, where he had more impact going forward than most of our forwards, especially Joffy, he's still slated. I'm not saying he's good but credit where credits due.

He had his best game for us. There's his credit.

He wasn't the worst defender in a white shirt either. That goes to Struijk and by a remarkable distance.
 
I do think he's got potential as a LWB. Maybe not Pablo but the new Gareth Bale :)

Seriously though, no one gives him an inch. Even when he has a good game, where he had more impact going forward than most of our forwards, especially Joffy, he's still slated. I'm not saying he's good but credit where credits due.
Being rated better than joe gelhardt v cardiff is not hard is it. Gelhardt needs to loaned out and sold.
 
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He had his best game for us. There's his credit.

He wasn't the worst defender in a white shirt either. That goes to Struijk and by a remarkable distance.

According to Graham Smyth he was our best defender until Drameh came on. He had a good run of games at the end of last season too but they're forgotten too easily.
It can't be easy seeing a CB chosen ahead of you, knowing that the fans think you're **** but when you get your chance you've got to take it.
Alioski wasn't good defensively but made up for it because he contributed up front. Dallas is ideal as he can do both.
I think Drameh is our most promising RB in front of Bill too.
 
I’m not, I just keep getting reminded we sold our best players, but that doesn’t answer the question, which three would you pick?

Whoever sanctioned the signing of Aaronson and Roca wants speaking to. One look at Wober in midfield and it’s obvious he’s a bit on the chunky side, slow and ponderous, if he’s the answer for a new LB then I’m a China man
But we did not sell our best player in raphinha because i say he is way overrated. We had barcas pants down with him.
 
Georginio Rutter: Why has Leeds target risen to a £30m price tag in two years?
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By Phil Hay and Mark Carey

If the lure of the Premier League is ever in doubt, notice how often it crops up in interviews with players who have never played in the competition. Georginio Rutter was quizzed about it when he spoke to the Scouted Football website last year, saying the Premier League “makes (young players) dream” and is, truthfully, where many prospects hope to go.

The division’s wealth and exposure have had that effect and as much as a young forward in Germany has Bayern Munich to think of, or potentially La Liga in Spain or Italy’s Serie A, England is so often the draw.

During that interview in May, Rutter was speaking hypothetically about heading over the Channel some day but last week the dream became more than that. Interest in him from the Premier League, and Leeds United specifically, had grown serious. His Bundesliga club, Hoffenheim, reacted to it by leaving him out of a winter-break friendly against Wolfsburg.

That was Friday and by Sunday morning, Hoffenheim announced publicly that Rutter was being stood down from first-team training and would play no part in a second friendly, arranged against Swiss side Servette yesterday.

The German season gets going again after their World Cup hiatus in 10 days’ time and Hoffenheim were well into their preparations for the resumption. Quickly, they started to plan without the 20-year-old, assuming the clubs courting him would make good on their initial approaches.

Hoffenheim did not say if Rutter had asked to be excused from training, stating only that he was “concerned about the current situation” and that the club were “dealing with a young person responsibly”, but the whys and wherefores are merely semantics. Rutter plainly had an ambitious eye on the English leagues and Hoffenheim stood to make a huge profit on a player they signed for relative pennies two years ago.

The club’s statement knocked the ball back into Leeds’ court, effectively inviting them to tie up the deal if they had the money and the conviction to do it. If parts of the prose felt a little over the top — “we are not talking about a piece of furniture here” — it was no surprise that Hoffenheim wanted to expedite the issue.

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Last night, sources in Germany were indicating to The Athletic that a deal with Leeds was on course for completion following talks over a fee which promised to break the transfer record at Elland Road set by the £27million ($32.9m) spent on Rodrigo in 2020. Rutter was actively pushing for the move and ready to board a plane.

On Leeds’ shortlist of strikers for the January window, his had been the most exciting name, the one that stood out as a highly-calculated investment.

Rutter has been regularly referenced as one of the brightest youngsters in the Bundesliga, an all-rounder of a forward in a way which would naturally appeal to Leeds. There is a view in Yorkshire that what this team need, and what they have needed since Patrick Bamford’s body began to fail him, is a bona fide No 9, but so many of their attacking targets — those they land and those they miss out on — offer versatility as part of the package.

Neither Cody Gakpo nor Charles De Ketelaere were out-and-out No 9s or narrow in their skill set. Willy Gnonto, their last-gasp arrival in August, can play anywhere across the line. Few of the names the club go after are quite as typecast as Bamford.

In early 2021, Rutter transferred from Rennes to Hoffenheim, without huge fanfare outside of France or Germany. He was a product of Rennes’ excellent academy, a team-mate and friend of Eduardo Camavinga, who would soon leave the Ligue 1 side for Real Madrid.

His departure was slightly acrimonious. Rutter had run close to the end of his contract and was not willing to sign a new one, unhappy that Rennes had barely used him in their first team. They then sold him at the last opportunity and according to sources in France, his price was around £500,000.


Over the two years since, Hoffenheim’s valuation has risen, by roughly 6,000 per cent, to more than £30million — a demand that prospective buyers in this window soon realised was no bluff.

How, then, did his price tag soar to such an extent?

Rutter is essentially the sort of footballer all club at a certain level are looking for — one who provides huge resale value for a relatively low-level outlay.

Leeds have tried to pursue that model themselves and even with Rutter, the hope would be that a fee of £30million-plus would be no barrier to his value increasing further, given he is 20 and still in the early stages of his career. Hoffenheim’s sporting director Alexander Rosen was quoted as describing Rutter’s development in Germany as “breathtaking”, and he has played in every one of their Bundesliga fixtures this season, carving out the first-team chances which were harder to find at Rennes.

Talk about transfers out of Hoffenheim usually reference Roberto Firmino’s switch to Liverpool, because few have been anywhere near as successful, and latterly Rutter has listened to those comparisons.

He has elements of Firmino about him in that he can play through the middle and operate with his back to goal if necessary, providing a focal point to make possession stick and a target to play through. But his pace lends itself to wide roles too, in areas where a little more space allows his dribbling and direct running to take effect.

Hoffenheim’s willingness to blood him and to expose him to top-level Bundesliga opposition has brought him on rapidly and alerted other teams to him. It was always likely to be this way and if Hoffenheim wrap up a transfer, they will tell themselves that they played the process perfectly.

Rutter is not the only attacking option Leeds have been talking about or looking at.

They have analysed Coventry City’s Viktor Gyokeres, despite the Championship club’s vocal reluctance to sell him, and there were suggestions of interest in Sebastian Driussi, the former River Plate forward who plays for FC Austin in MLS. Leeds’ head coach Jesse Marsch is an admirer of Wolves’ Hwang Hee-chan and has been for a while.

But the noise around Rutter indicated that he was the option they wanted to tie up and the one with the most potential to develop.

He would not be bringing prolific stats with him — 10 goals and four assists in 57 league appearances in Germany — but people see in Rutter the quality to blossom into a highly-influential attacker.

Beyond doubt is his comfort with the ball at his feet.

To see how he compares we can use smarterscout, which gives players’ games a series of ratings from zero to 99, a bit like the player ratings in the FIFA video games but powered by real data and advanced analytics. These ratings — adjusted for Premier League standard — relate to either how often a player performs a given stylistic action (for example, volume of shots per touch), or how effective they are at it (for example, how well they progress the ball upfield) compared with others at their position.

As the chart below shows, Rutter is in the highest percentile for his volume of carries and dribbles, making him a good bet as a wide forward.

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His relatively high rate of expected goals from ball progression — the extent to which movement of the ball up the field helps to increase the danger of his side — indicates that quick and direct sprinting can be effective in forcing openings. But the xG of the shots he creates shows room for improvement, even if his own shot volume is at an acceptable level.

The more Leeds were to use him centrally, the more chances are likely to present themselves.

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Rutter has seen a fair number of opportunities in the Bundesliga this season, with the average chance dropping to him 15 yards from goal.

What is apparent from the breakdown of his shooting is that it casts him as very two-footed: stronger on his left but only marginally, and just as happy striking the ball with his right. As a runner, the data indicates that Leeds would be signing a gifted protagonist in take-ons and one-on-ones. His success rate in them (below) is extremely high, as is the quality of his tackling by the standards of an attacker.

At his young age, it provides plenty to build on and vindicates some of the hype around him.

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With Max Wober already signed and therefore a defensive crack ostensibly dealt with, this is where Leeds’ attention now lies — on the forward they know they have to recruit.

Rutter has only so much experience, far less than someone like 51-cap South Korea international Hwang, but he is fresh, he is widely admired and his evolution at Hoffenheim is why recruitment departments have homed in on him and why his value is shooting up.

His estrangement from Hoffenheim’s first-team plans did not bounce Leeds into action immediately on Sunday but they like the Frenchman, he likes England, and Hoffenheim’s actions over the weekend created a shop floor where the only obstacle was the thing that gave the Premier League its glitz in the first place — money.
Lengthy article but goes nowhere near to explaining why his value has gone from 750k to over 30 million in two years. Massive risk for me. Jadon Sancho was tearing up the German league, now he can’t even train with the scum first team. And as for this fitting our “model” of buying potential cheap, 30 million is cheap? Whatever we eventually sell him for if he is a success will never match the profit Hoffenheim has just earned from us.
 
The only defender that doesn't suffer from low confidence is Cooper and that's why he's always first pick. The problem with Cooper is that he's not quite good enough at this level. It was interesting listening to Marsch talk about Wober after the Cardiff game where he said that you can rely on him to take responsibility and do the brave things. Reading inbetween the lines I think he is talking about confidence and not playing scared. It was pretty clear to me that he wanted Wober to come in because he won't wilt under the pressure.

The Kristensen and Aaronson problems are strange because they both have the talent. They both care and they both give everything they have at every moment they have on the pitch.

Kristensen has been vocal about him struggling to adapt to the pace of the league and that's pretty honest of him. He's a physical specimen and I think he might kick on as he adjusts. He has improved recently.

Aaronson clearly has a lot going for him. He finds space, makes clever runs in dangerous areas and is unselfish. He's fairly quick, a great presser of the ball and has quick feet. I think his early success has made him a target and teams have started leaning on him a bit more and they usually crowd him out. He's a bit small and weak and probably doesn't get the free kicks he deserves because of the way he goes down and throws his arms about. He's still a great signing in my eyes but teams have found his weakness which is his physical strength. He's young, he'll learn from this spell and I believe he has the skill set to be an asset for us. It might have to be in a wider role for now where he will attract less attention. Needs some steak down him and a few weights sessions.

Aaronson is suffering from some confidence issue after the World Cup, but his early performances were very good. He just needs to re-find his form.
 
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Lengthy article but goes nowhere near to explaining why his value has gone from 750k to over 30 million in two years. Massive risk for me. Jadon Sancho was tearing up the German league, now he can’t even train with the scum first team. And as for this fitting our “model” of buying potential cheap, 30 million is cheap? Whatever we eventually sell him for if he is a success will never match the profit Hoffenheim has just earned from us.
So you believe leeds have 30 million right now to splash around. A deposit may be paid and the rest lots of clauses.
 
Lengthy article but goes nowhere near to explaining why his value has gone from 750k to over 30 million in two years. Massive risk for me. Jadon Sancho was tearing up the German league, now he can’t even train with the scum first team. And as for this fitting our “model” of buying potential cheap, 30 million is cheap? Whatever we eventually sell him for if he is a success will never match the profit Hoffenheim has just earned from us.
At the end of the day it’s a roll of the dice for Marsch, Orta and Radz. Last year his value jumped to £16m from the £500k so a huge jump back then but Im guessing his real price is now £20m but having to pay a January premium plus future potential. Guess it’s just a fact of life in football mate
 
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Last year's 3 of Phillips, Klich and Dallas (although rarely, if ever, played together last year) is massively let down by Klich as he was last season. He had run his race and was a passenger. Dallas is a steady Eddie. I rate Phillips extremely highly btw, very underrated player. I'd just about pick this lot over Adams, Roca and Aaronson but having Phillips in there is the only reason and he wasn't available for most of the season.

Roca does alot of stuff off the ball that I like and he tries to play through the lines but he's no Phillips. Needs to get back to pinging those balls out wide he did earlier this season. Adams is very busy and has started to influence things further forward. I like Aaronson and his energy, he's got quick feet. He thrived early season but he needs to do everything quicker. Needs to build himself up stronger for this league but all is not lost with him. The emergence of Greenwood in that role has been a good move by Marsch who identified him lacking pace up top so moved him back. When Bielsa did that with Phillips he was a genius. When Marsch takes a younger guy and does it....
I’m not sure you can compare the call between the two decisions in equal terms as yet. Bielsa’s change got us promoted and KP an international call up. I know you’re supporting Marsch but think you’ve gone early with the “genius” move by Jesse.
 
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I’m not sure you can compare the call between the two decisions in equal terms as yet. Bielsa’s change got us promoted and KP an international call up. I know you’re supporting Marsch but think you’ve gone early with the “genius” move by Jesse.

Never said it was genius by Marsch. I said it was seen as genius by Bielsa when he moved Phillips.

Also on this supporting Marsch thing. I have my own reservations on the guy and his system. I just think he has done some good things whilst in charge and I'm tired of everything seemingly being his fault ALL of the time.

I stuck up for Bielsa and pointed at the players this time last season and those same players are now letting the new guy down with their insecurities and basic errors. All I'm saying when I stick up for Marsch is that nobody can turn this lot into a top 10 side. We could get rid but then what? Get who? Who can stop these individual mistakes? The only solid answer I received was from Jammy who said he'd take Dyche and park the bus.
 
So you believe leeds have 30 million right now to splash around. A deposit may be paid and the rest lots of clauses.
I’ve no idea what we’ve paid, only what’s been reported. If you have better facts on the deal please enlighten me. Simple maths says we’ll never match the profit they’ve made from us.
 
Never said it was genius by Marsch. I said it was seen as genius by Bielsa when he moved Phillips.

Also on this supporting Marsch thing. I have my own reservations on the guy and his system. I just think he has done some good things whilst in charge and I'm tired of everything seemingly being his fault ALL of the time.

I stuck up for Bielsa and pointed at the players this time last season and those same players are now letting the new guy down with their insecurities and basic errors. All I'm saying when I stick up for Marsch is that nobody can turn this lot into a top 10 side. We could get rid but then what? Get who? Who can stop these individual mistakes? The only solid answer I received was from Jammy who said he'd take Dyche and park the bus.
But it was from Bielsa, we got promoted, he became an England international and the best team in the country wanted to buy him. If / when that happens to Greenwood I’ll hail Jesse’s decision as genius as well.