The Knee

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Quite Possibly Raving said:
I guess this is a case of horses for courses. There are times in history where very clearly civil disobedience 'worked' in forcing change regardless of the initial opinion of the public - women's suffrage in the early C20th or the civil rights movement in the US in the 60s. In these cases protest highlighted an issue, led to debate, and then change. There are other examples of where a more conciliatory approach has worked - although I'm struggling to think of an example, probably as they are less 'famous'. Whether this is a time for one approach or the other is a judgement call and hard to argue for definitively. It might also be the case that a different approach is needed in the US vs the UK, but I'm mindful of not wanting to fall into the trap of thinking that the the UK doesn't have issues with racism just because it is so much more overt in the US.

Edit - perhaps an example of similar societal change which has occurred without such forthright protest would be LGBT+ rights.
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Yes, I'm not saying a campaign of civil disobedience doesn't work - just that it needs to be aimed at government not at the public. You mention the suffragettes. When Emily Davison threw herself under the King's horse, her death embarrassed government, but it also secured a huge amount of public sympathy.

We have black politicians like David Lammy who has a strong voice in Parliament and on LBC. These politicians can point out where they feel the UK is racist, and if plausible, government and society must react. But we have to be realistic as to when there are problems in the black/BAME community caused by a racist system, and when they are caused by other factors.
 
Willhoops said:
That's all been tried for years, decades actually just look at the reaction black history month gets!! Not just this year every year, people are boycotting supermarkets who support it, also people fume over a black family on a xmas add and claim they can't relate but have no issue with an add with a family of carrots! What do you do when large numbers of people have no interest in being educated or persuaded?
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It's a vocal minority that complain about black families in Christmas ads. It's not an issue with most people.

I think people are wary of virtue signalling by big commercial companies on a number of issues. So perhaps pushing a pro BAME message should be done subtly by them, so people realise the message is worthy and genuine
 
Willhoops said:
Can you play devils advocate for me? I'm yet to get a reasonable explanation why there have been so many people saying their objections to the taking the knee, etc.. is due to the Maxist BLM ... when not one of the people I have seen, and it's a lot, use that has been able to define Marxism let alone say what their objections to Marxism is. I'm definitely not saying this about you by the way. Is there a reasonable excuse as to why there are so many people are pushing this false narrative?

I also don't quite understand why people flat out refuse to listen, despite almost everyone who speaks publicly about this including every football team and every player, have said they are supporting the equalities message and distanced themselves from any political message. Why can't people differentiate?
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It doesn't matter what you want or think Will. The club listened, and we all came to a compromise - everyone's happy - nothing left to see!!
 
Goldhawk-Road said:
Yes, I'm not saying a campaign of civil disobedience doesn't work - just that it needs to be aimed at government not at the public. You mention the suffragettes. When Emily Davison threw herself under the King's horse, her death embarrassed government, but it also secured a huge amount of public sympathy.

We have black politicians like David Lammy who has a strong voice in Parliament and on LBC. These politicians can point out where they feel the UK is racist, and if plausible, government and society must react. But we have to be realistic as to when there are problems in the black/BAME community caused by a racist system, and when they are caused by other factors.
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Yep, don't disagree that more ought to be targeted towards govt, much more likely to be successful.
 
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Just a line to put things into perspective, I've read a couple of match reports in which the football content was barely 25% of the copy. MSM are only interested in demonizing football and it's supporters at every opportunity as Millwall supporters know only too well. If you give them a sniff they'll crucify you come what may. We, as a club, had our dose of this bile after the Coventry game, it doesn't matter what you do in the community, they have their agenda...
 
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Willhoops said:
Can you play devils advocate for me? I'm yet to get a reasonable explanation why there have been so many people saying their objections to the taking the knee, etc.. is due to the Maxist BLM ... when not one of the people I have seen, and it's a lot, use that has been able to define Marxism let alone say what their objections to Marxism is. I'm definitely not saying this about you by the way. Is there a reasonable excuse as to why there are so many people are pushing this false narrative?

I also don't quite understand why people flat out refuse to listen, despite almost everyone who speaks publicly about this including every football team and every player, have said they are supporting the equalities message and distanced themselves from any political message. Why can't people differentiate?
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I suppose people struggle to differentiate because they don't like a lot of what BLM stand for.
Black Lives Matter (of course they do) is written on television coverage etc etc.
I think it may be time to ditch this and return to kick it out and other anti racism initiatives.
I completely understand why the taking of the knee is symbolic after what happened in the states, but the political aspect is causing problems and allowing the message to be diluted imo.
I don't think many people are concentrating on the Marxist angle you mention. It certainly hasn't been reported very widely.
I don't think that taking the knee would ever be an issue if it wasn't for the unsavoury aspects of BLM.
I do find the black power clenched fist a tad inflammatory, although I recognise that it's origins were born out of dreadful discrimination.
 
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Does anyone think teams will be allowed to wear a poppy or is that political?
 
rangercol said:
I suppose people struggle to differentiate because they don't like a lot of what BLM stand for.
Black Lives Matter (of course they do) is written on television coverage etc etc.
I think it may be time to ditch this and return to kick it out and other anti racism initiatives.
I completely understand why the taking of the knee is symbolic after what happened in the states, but the political aspect is causing problems and allowing the message to be diluted imo.
I don't think many people are concentrating on the Marxist angle you mention. It certainly hasn't been reported very widely.
I don't think that taking the knee would ever be an issue if it wasn't for the unsavoury aspects of BLM.
I do find the black power clenched fist a tad inflammatory, although I recognise that it's origins were born out of dreadful discrimination.
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Boom, an answer that not one other person challenged, from what I've seen, has even come close to answering, and a fair one, thanks Col. I would say, as I did previously the Marxist angle is all over social media, but not one of them seems to be able to define Marxism and the elements they object to, if they had given reasons rather than remaining silent or throwing out statements that have absolutely nothing to do with Marxism I, and others, wouldn't be so suspicious of other motivations.

I do find it odd that people flat out refuse to differentiate what the vast majority, including the players and clubs see as the message for BLM which is the anti racism message and the group that have formed under the umbrella of BLM which have controversial political agenda, which is a totally different.
 
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Willhoops said:
Boom, an answer that not one other person challenged, from what I've seen, has even come close to answering, and a fair one, thanks Col. I would say, as I did previously the Marxist angle is all over social media, but not one of them seems to be able to define Marxism and the elements they object to, if they had given reasons rather than remaining silent or throwing out statements that have absolutely nothing to do with Marxism I, and others, wouldn't be so suspicious of other motivations.

I do find it odd that people flat out refuse to differentiate what the vast majority, including the players and clubs see as the message for BLM which is the anti racism message and the group that have formed under the umbrella of BLM which have controversial political agenda, which is a totally different.
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A bit like the swastika, which for 12,000 years was a symbol of peace (still is in the Hindu religion) but is now seen as a symbol of racism and hatred.
 
Willhoops said:
Boom, an answer that not one other person challenged, from what I've seen, has even come close to answering, and a fair one, thanks Col. I would say, as I did previously the Marxist angle is all over social media, but not one of them seems to be able to define Marxism and the elements they object to, if they had given reasons rather than remaining silent or throwing out statements that have absolutely nothing to do with Marxism I, and others, wouldn't be so suspicious of other motivations.

I do find it odd that people flat out refuse to differentiate what the vast majority, including the players and clubs see as the message for BLM which is the anti racism message and the group that have formed under the umbrella of BLM which have controversial political agenda, which is a totally different.
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I can see the problem here Wills - "social media."

I also offer a solution: "don't go on social media". :)
 
TC (Lovely Geezer) said:
A bit like the swastika, which for 12,000 years was a symbol of peace (still is in the Hindu religion) but is now seen as a symbol of racism and hatred.
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So is that like when pretty much any racist EDL type group adopted the St George’s Flag or the Union Jack? And is often on the clothing of people telling anyone they consider might be foreign to **** off home? Or would that be completely different somehow? <whistle>
 
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