Or they believe the gesture is a powerful statement that they oppose racism and they won't be silenced because some people want to assign a non existent agenda? Why would a referee book a player for that? Seems very odd.
These two players used racial-equality gestures AT the opposing team's fans, like a V sign, after scoring against their team! Had it been to our own fans, it would not have been an issue
That's fair, I have no issue with them taking the stance but directly facing the oppositions fans doesn't help and that would be the case of any reaction including celebrations, it's just a no no. Could have done it facing each other which could have been a powerful image, and I suspect they would have still received a negative reaction, however they didn't do that so it'll only ever be a suspicion which means nothing.
Obama is indeed a superbly eloquent speaker on behalf of the status quo. As long as we don’t upset anyone ever, no matter what they do or say, that’s fine.
I am not sure I agree with this generically. The woman who reversed into my daughter knocking her over...who I told that "she ought to take driving lessons". But who countered with "but I have been driving for years" and I asked her "how many people she had killed in that time" is a case in point! No you cannot be conciliatory all the time...and after 400 years of suppression and change being made at the pace of a snail then may be some people are getting a bit tired of just being nice.
I'm not quite sure, on your driving accident anecdote, Beth, who was trying to win whom over. It seems it was clearly adversarial and couldn't be anything else. I hope you're daughter was alright, by the way. But surely the civil rights movement wants the public on their side. They want support. They can march and make a nuisance of themselves for government to bring attention to their cause, but there has to be an element of persuasion there for voters. How much are Extinction Rebellion achieving at the moment? Incredibly important cause, but they're irritating the hell out of people by blocking roads, stopping trains, disrespecting war memorials and services etc Focus on government, don't mess with people's already stressful lives The British public understand the need for every one to be equal before the law. My view is that education and persuasion are the strongest tools for the activists, not giving the public the finger (or actually, a clenched fist).
That's all been tried for years, decades actually just look at the reaction black history month gets!! Not just this year every year, people are boycotting supermarkets who support it, also people fume over a black family on a xmas add and claim they can't relate but have no issue with an add with a family of carrots! What do you do when large numbers of people have no interest in being educated or persuaded?
I so agree with this Wills. It is good to support anti-racism campaigns but " as long as it doesn't affect me". Why do we have so many ads with black or asian people in them?....Well that is because they make up a big chunk of our population! Why do we have black history month? ....because black history has been buried and the standard British person ( white and in many cases black/asian too) actually have no idea about it. Why do BLM go on about the police so much? ....maybe it is because your kids aren't regularly stopped by the police if they are out at night just with their mates Why do black players go on about predujice in the game?...well maybe if there were a few more coaches, manager, administrators from ethnic minorities then perhaps they wouldn't. We keep saying it takes time, it does but even to me it seems to be taking an awfully long time
I guess this is a case of horses for courses. There are times in history where very clearly civil disobedience 'worked' in forcing change regardless of the initial opinion of the public - women's suffrage in the early C20th or the civil rights movement in the US in the 60s. In these cases protest highlighted an issue, led to debate, and then change. There are other examples of where a more conciliatory approach has worked - although I'm struggling to think of an example, probably as they are less 'famous'. Whether this is a time for one approach or the other is a judgement call and hard to argue for definitively. It might also be the case that a different approach is needed in the US vs the UK, but I'm mindful of not wanting to fall into the trap of thinking that the the UK doesn't have issues with racism just because it is so much more overt in the US. Edit - perhaps an example of similar societal change which has occurred without such forthright protest would be LGBT+ rights.
Yes, I agree. Perhaps things have changed, but my experiences with "open" racism in the US early 70's where I worked in groups of blokes of all different races and backgrounds, but where we were all great mates, partied together after work, and told each other stories of what they used to do to the Blacks, Whites and Mexicans back home in the old days. That was all somehow with good humour, though of course it wasn't originally, or in other places/situations. But it didnt seem near as bad somehow as the more hidden, but more nasty racism I encountered back in London, later in the 70's/early 80's, especially when I was with my Black friend and later wife.
I've mentioned this before, I think it was Clinton Morrison who said it, but he had to explain to his own kids that some people would treat them differently, use horrific language towards them and even hate them purely based on the colour of their skin,. That ****ing broke my heart, I'd have broken into a fit of tears if I had to tell my own children something like that, for me that comment was so powerful. Sadly he needed to do it to explain to them why these things still happen. I'm not suggesting everyone is racist, not anyone on the QPR board including our recent visitor is, but you out to lunch if you don't think very thinly veiled racism is in the mainstream and all over social media. The Millwall incident is a prime example with people saying it's the Marxist BLM they don't like, yet I'm still to see one of these people that have used that excuse to be able to define Marxism and the negative aspects that upset them so much. So that's clearly a lie, why lie unless your motivation for objecting is something a lot more sinister? I can't think of one reasonable explanation why these people are peddling this false narrative. To be honest I think apathy, making excuses letting people get away with that kinda **** has got us to this boiling point, in my eyes racism has got a lot worse over the last decade and whereas most bigoted views were something to hide and was not socially acceptable, racists, well bigots in general now feel a lot more comfortable being way more open than a decade ago, and it's easy for them, you just have to thinly veil it and not make the direct statement and you get a free pass. I would like to thank Goldie for his comments though, yeah we might not agree all the time and in my opinion some of his views are misguided, I'm sure he'd say the same about me, but it's good to have a foil to get discussion going and I do value his opinion.
I share some of your concerns. Unfortunately, anyone deviating from the liberal party line on here will be frowned upon.
Can you play devils advocate for me? I'm yet to get a reasonable explanation why there have been so many people saying their objections to the taking the knee, etc.. is due to the Maxist BLM ... when not one of the people I have seen, and it's a lot, use that has been able to define Marxism let alone say what their objections to Marxism is. I'm definitely not saying this about you by the way. Is there a reasonable excuse as to why there are so many people are pushing this false narrative? I also don't quite understand why people flat out refuse to listen, despite almost everyone who speaks publicly about this including every football team and every player, have said they are supporting the equalities message and distanced themselves from any political message. Why can't people differentiate?
BAME makes up 1 in 10 in UK. British History does need to evolve to reflect all of us Black kids are killing black kids at the moment, particularly London. Stop and search will save young black lives imo, so long as done respectfully and always recorded by police body cam There's no prejudice in the game so far as black players being selected. They prove themselves on the pitch. If black players prove themselves in management roles, they will get those roles. This isn't just a UK thing. Look worldwide - it hasn't happened yet. There is hope. Seedorf, Henry, Hughton
