Off Topic The EU thread ... first 100 weeks

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The Penguin said:
Call it what you like, we are legally signed up to it, and America played a large part in bringing it about. In the long term the only solution I see is a united Ireland, and I believe the young people of Northern Ireland will be increasingly in favour of it.
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Yes I agree with all of that Penguin. We are also signed up to Bexit and the British people voted for that directly in the biggest democratic vote in this country. However those two commitments don’t sit side by side very well, thanks largely to the EU insisting on border controls into and out of their trade area. All three of these parameters are reasonable in themselves it’s just that they don’t work when put together.

As far as I’m concerned the Brexit decision is the one that has the backing of a full referendum of the British people so cannot be compromised. We have to make the others fit in around it as best we can which is what I think the government tried to do. However there is no solution that meets all three needs equally and that is the problem.

I agree entirely about a united Ireland and hope that one day in my lifetime that is what happens. Unfortunately that is not in the interests of the people that currently have power on the Island so I fear that I may never see it. I also fear that there will need to be much blood shed before that ever happens.

People just need to be people - not men, women, black, white, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, gay, straight etc etc etc
 
Ubedizzy said:
Yes I agree with all of that Penguin. We are also signed up to Bexit and the British people voted for that directly in the biggest democratic vote in this country. However those two commitments don’t sit side by side very well, thanks largely to the EU insisting on border controls into and out of their trade area. All three of these parameters are reasonable in themselves it’s just that they don’t work when put together.

As far as I’m concerned the Brexit decision is the one that has the backing of a full referendum of the British people so cannot be compromised. We have to make the others fit in around it as best we can which is what I think the government tried to do. However there is no solution that meets all three needs equally and that is the problem.

I agree entirely about a united Ireland and hope that one day in my lifetime that is what happens. Unfortunately that is not in the interests of the people that currently have power on the Island so I fear that I may never see it. I also fear that there will need to be much blood shed before that ever happens.

People just need to be people - not men, women, black, white, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, gay, straight etc etc etc
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As far as Brexit is concerned, it has happened, we've left the EU, end of. I was a remoaner, but that's all over, we're ahrt.
 
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The Penguin said:
As far as Brexit is concerned, it has happened, we've left the EU, end of. I was a remoaner, but that's all over, we're ahrt.
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Agreed Penguin. It's only the implications of that decision on the Ireland situation that I was referring to. I think the government tried to do the best with the decision that had been made that's all. There wasn't and isn't, a perfect solution to the Ireland border situation which honours the result of the referendum, but it was right that the result of the referendum WAS honoured.
 
The Penguin said:
It wouldn't have affected us. Each country is making its own policy.
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No, the EU had a common policy that all countries were supposed to stick to, as is the way with a union. However it didn't last as some have broken away and started doing their own thing, probably influenced by the massive difference between the EU's rate of vaccination and our own. The vaccination program in the UK has so far been the biggest benefit of having left the EU.
 
Ubedizzy said:
No, the EU had a common policy that all countries were supposed to stick to, as is the way with a union. However it didn't last as some have broken away and started doing their own thing, probably influenced by the massive difference between the EU's rate of vaccination and our own. The vaccination program in the UK has so far been the biggest benefit of having left the EU.
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The vaccination program has been a huge success, but our overall record gives no reason for gloating or triumphalism. 126,000 dead.
 
The Penguin said:
The vaccination program has been a huge success, but our overall record gives no reason for gloating or triumphalism. 126,000 dead.
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Agreed, but when we left it gave us the freedom to make these kinds of decisions, which are now saving hundreds of lives. Previously we would have had to have followed the EU’s rules
 
I don't think you can write off the Good Friday Agreement as appeasement. There was terrorism on both sides in Northern Ireland, and the GFA effectively brought that to an end. Both sides accepted the agreement, and the years of senseless slaughter were brought to an end. Nobody got exactly what they wanted - that would have been impossible, but both sides got enough to cry halt, and the result was that the citizens of Northern Ireland got some normality back. You can say that underlying problems weren't addressed, but that bypasses the fact that it would be impossible to resolve one set of differences without riling up the other side. Not a neat solution, but a solution for all that. Theresa May, for all her faults, tried to take this into account with her negotiations with the EU, but here agreements were perpetually shot down by the ERG and members of her own party who wanted a much harder Brexit. So we have the current situation. The GFA was a tough deal to achieve, but in order to achieve the Brexit his hardliners wanted, Boris effectively threw it overboard. It isn't going to go away, but we now have the problem of different political factions in Belfast seeing their sacrifices to the GFA trodden on, and they are all going back to demanding ALL their demands, which isn't possible. The hard border was a red line for the EU in negotiations - they have it all round the EU. It was also a definate part of the GFA, so it should have been taken into consideration by the UK negotiators. Boris said repeatedly there would be no border down the Irish sea, but he never offered a solution, just a lot of self congratulatory stuff when the deal was signed (and which he denied Parliament the right to discuss) and it turned out he was lying again. It'll need a better politician than Johnson, Gove or Rees-Mogg to untie this mess, but I don't see anyone in the current parliament.
 
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Shabby of Toad Hall said:
I don't think you can write off the Good Friday Agreement as appeasement. There was terrorism on both sides in Northern Ireland, and the GFA effectively brought that to an end. Both sides accepted the agreement, and the years of senseless slaughter were brought to an end. Nobody got exactly what they wanted - that would have been impossible, but both sides got enough to cry halt, and the result was that the citizens of Northern Ireland got some normality back. You can say that underlying problems weren't addressed, but that bypasses the fact that it would be impossible to resolve one set of differences without riling up the other side. Not a neat solution, but a solution for all that. Theresa May, for all her faults, tried to take this into account with her negotiations with the EU, but here agreements were perpetually shot down by the ERG and members of her own party who wanted a much harder Brexit. So we have the current situation. The GFA was a tough deal to achieve, but in order to achieve the Brexit his hardliners wanted, Boris effectively threw it overboard. It isn't going to go away, but we now have the problem of different political factions in Belfast seeing their sacrifices to the GFA trodden on, and they are all going back to demanding ALL their demands, which isn't possible. The hard border was a red line for the EU in negotiations - they have it all round the EU. It was also a definate part of the GFA, so it should have been taken into consideration by the UK negotiators. Boris said repeatedly there would be no border down the Irish sea, but he never offered a solution, just a lot of self congratulatory stuff when the deal was signed (and which he denied Parliament the right to discuss) and it turned out he was lying again. It'll need a better politician than Johnson, Gove or Rees-Mogg to untie this mess, but I don't see anyone in the current parliament.
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Excellent summing-up.
Irish history is quite interesting, and helps anyone who reads it to get a balanced view. I visited Dublin 3 years ago and was very disappointed in the decline in the standard of live music over the last 50 years. Now it's all "Whisky in the Jar" and "The Wild Rover" touristy stuff. Planxty.......................now there was a band...
 
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Shabby of Toad Hall said:
I don't think you can write off the Good Friday Agreement as appeasement. There was terrorism on both sides in Northern Ireland, and the GFA effectively brought that to an end. Both sides accepted the agreement, and the years of senseless slaughter were brought to an end. Nobody got exactly what they wanted - that would have been impossible, but both sides got enough to cry halt, and the result was that the citizens of Northern Ireland got some normality back. You can say that underlying problems weren't addressed, but that bypasses the fact that it would be impossible to resolve one set of differences without riling up the other side. Not a neat solution, but a solution for all that. Theresa May, for all her faults, tried to take this into account with her negotiations with the EU, but here agreements were perpetually shot down by the ERG and members of her own party who wanted a much harder Brexit. So we have the current situation. The GFA was a tough deal to achieve, but in order to achieve the Brexit his hardliners wanted, Boris effectively threw it overboard. It isn't going to go away, but we now have the problem of different political factions in Belfast seeing their sacrifices to the GFA trodden on, and they are all going back to demanding ALL their demands, which isn't possible. The hard border was a red line for the EU in negotiations - they have it all round the EU. It was also a definate part of the GFA, so it should have been taken into consideration by the UK negotiators. Boris said repeatedly there would be no border down the Irish sea, but he never offered a solution, just a lot of self congratulatory stuff when the deal was signed (and which he denied Parliament the right to discuss) and it turned out he was lying again. It'll need a better politician than Johnson, Gove or Rees-Mogg to untie this mess, but I don't see anyone in the current parliament.
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I think we can agree that the GFA achieved its main aim which was to bring an end to the majority of the violence which of course was a major success. It did however leave many issues completely unresolved and they continue to sit below the surface festering away.

The UK voted for Brexit and it was essential for basic democracy that that vote was implemented by the UK parliament. For a variety of reasons that was proving impossible and we were heading for a no-deal Brexit which hardly anyone actually wanted (even if some said they did). The deal we got isn’t perfect and yes it does have an adverse effect on the GFA but the two, plus the reasonable demands of the EU to protect its trade area do not go side by side without conflict. I think what we got was a compromise on all sides and we have to make the best of it.

But what would have been unacceptable to the British people is to have seen the biggest democratic vote in our history be overturned because of the threat of unlawful violence by a minority on the island of Ireland. The reason there is a border down the Irish Sea is because the EU insist on protecting their free trade area (which is fair enough) but we couldn’t have a border between the EU and the UK on the island of Ireland because terrorists threatened to attack and murder border officials who would have to work there. That’s not a reason to stop Brexit, so a compromise had to be found, which is what we’ve got. Otherwise what is the solution to the trade border issue ?
 
Yes, but I was delibertely avoiding suggesting that Brexit should be halted. The question was to include a feasible solution to a change in the circumstances in NI. Also, you are right that there were unresolved issues - after god knows how many centuries of mutual distrust and hatred, there was no possible magic remedy to turn that around and have handshakes and happiness on all sides. Some convicted murderers are free due to the GFA, and I am sure there are families of victims who curse the deal that set those people free. Sadly, it was a political decision which aimed to provide hope to the greatest number possible, and in my view, it worked. The issue now is not about whether or not Brexit should happen or not, it's about incorporating a deal acceptable to all sides in Northern Ireland which will avoid another round of blood letting and eventually see a return to the sort of stuff we watched on TV every night in the 1970's. If that is a part of the Brexit delivery, it's not acceptable - you can't justify a political solution that costs lives. So instead of planning a festival of Brexit, maybe the government, the major political parties in Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, plus the EU, need to sit back down and renegotiate this. As I said before, Boris and Gove lied about the border in the Irish Sea - to then turn around and tell everyone who distrusted this statement to just accept it is infantile, and history shows that in Ireland, that isn't what happens.
 
Shabby of Toad Hall said:
Yes, but I was delibertely avoiding suggesting that Brexit should be halted. The question was to include a feasible solution to a change in the circumstances in NI. Also, you are right that there were unresolved issues - after god knows how many centuries of mutual distrust and hatred, there was no possible magic remedy to turn that around and have handshakes and happiness on all sides. Some convicted murderers are free due to the GFA, and I am sure there are families of victims who curse the deal that set those people free. Sadly, it was a political decision which aimed to provide hope to the greatest number possible, and in my view, it worked. The issue now is not about whether or not Brexit should happen or not, it's about incorporating a deal acceptable to all sides in Northern Ireland which will avoid another round of blood letting and eventually see a return to the sort of stuff we watched on TV every night in the 1970's. If that is a part of the Brexit delivery, it's not acceptable - you can't justify a political solution that costs lives. So instead of planning a festival of Brexit, maybe the government, the major political parties in Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, plus the EU, need to sit back down and renegotiate this. As I said before, Boris and Gove lied about the border in the Irish Sea - to then turn around and tell everyone who distrusted this statement to just accept it is infantile, and history shows that in Ireland, that isn't what happens.
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Agree with nearly all of that Shabby. I wasn’t suggesting that you were justifying trying to stop Brexit because of the problems it would create on the Island of Ireland.

As I see it, there had to be a time limit on coming to an agreement with the EU and most people would say that it was dragging on for too long already. The only options I can see were a hard border between the EU and UK (unacceptable to virtually everyone), a hard border within the UK (ie around the mainland of Great Britain) also unacceptable to virtually everyone and would cut off NI physically from GB, a technical solution using software to solve the problem, which was suggested but everyone agreed wasn’t possible or workable at this time, or the border in the Irish Sea solution which is what we have.

I think of the 4, what we have is the least worst option, so if that’s what the UK and EU could agree on then I don’t see what else they could have done to carry out the result of the referendum. I’m happy to listen to alternatives, but I’m sure more informed minds than mine have pawed over this endlessly. I just think it’s very easy to criticise the government but less easy to find a better solution.
 
I didn't spend two years or more arguing for Brexit because I wanted to see a border across the Irish Sea and NI split away from the Union, and given to the EU (and the Republic of Ireland).
That to me was never a price worth paying for Great Britain's independence from the European Union.

I trusted all the senior politicians involved to make sure such a thing did not happen.
Looks like my trust has been betrayed.
I can understand the anger of people in NI who will feel it a hundred times more keenly than I do.
 
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lardiman said:
I didn't spend two years or more arguing for Brexit because I wanted to see a border across the Irish Sea and NI split away from the Union, and given to the EU (and the Republic of Ireland).
That to me was never a price worth paying for Great Britain's independence from the European Union.

I trusted all the senior politicians involved to make sure such a thing did not happen.
Looks like my trust has been betrayed.
I can understand the anger of people in NI who will feel it a hundred times more keenly than I do.
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Fair enough, but what is the solution to the border issue then ?

Or are we saying that because we weren’t given a solution that is perfect for everyone then we shouldn’t have had the referendum ?
 
The Penguin said:
I don't recall being told by Team Brexit during the referendum campaign that there would not be a solution.
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And anyway, there is a solution, it’s just that it doesn’t please some people. That was always going to be the case. But democracy trumps everything else in my opinion, otherwise, as I argued earlier, it’s a slippery road to the rule of whoever has the biggest guns and is prepared to use the most violence. Myanmar being a good example of that.
 
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I think you are being over generous with the UK government @Ubedizzy . With a potential minefield like the GFA, the negotiating team should have been all over that, trying to find a solution that would shore things up. After all, this is the government of Brexit - surely they should have made sure it wouldn't have a large loose end dangling. Their attitude seems to have been to 'wing it' and see how it ends up, which is now becoming clear. This will also rebound elsewhere - the US were making it pretty clear before Trump was voted out that they wouldn't be trading much with a country that sank the GFA.

I do wonder about the part the DUP played in all of this. They were generally there or thereabouts woth the ERG every time a treaty got voted on, and their position was that Brexit should be the harder the better. It doesn't take a big leap to see that a hard Brexit would cause a hard border in Ireland, and that the Republicans would find that unacceptable. As it was, Boris sold the DUP down the river and put the border in the Irish sea, so it is the Loyalists who are crying 'foul' even though it was a very possible consequence. But while I don't wish to drift into QAnon territory, it wouldn't have been a bad guess that the Tories would reward the DUP for their service proping up Theresa May by putting the border where it would cause least problems to the DUP - between the North and the Republic.

If you actually wanted a solution, a softer Brexit with an open trade agreement with the EU would possibly have covered that. I believe Norway has that, although they get no say in the voting of trading conditions with the EU - they just have to abide by them,
 
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