Off Topic The EU thread ... first 100 weeks

[The Penguin]

And anyway, there is a solution, it’s just that it doesn’t please some people. That was always going to be the case. But democracy trumps everything else in my opinion, otherwise, as I argued earlier, it’s a slippery road to the rule of whoever has the biggest guns and is prepared to use the most violence. Myanmar being a good example of that.

DEmocracy has already triumphed- we've left the EU. The SNP seem to be doing the same thing, ignoring the practical problems in favour of the emotional argument. They won't talk about the hard border, the currency, the fiscal deficit. Just plough on regardless, talking about Boris Johnson and Westminster. denying the financial hit, the parallels are there. The Government's own Office for Budget Responsibility estimates the hit to the economy at 3% for Covid and 4% for Brexit. I only hope that thesight of the revolting Alex Salmond, the architect of Indy, strutting around weakens the cause enough.

 

[lardiman]

Democracy alone is no substitute for moral responsibility and character in our leaders.
The referendum in 2016 and the result were consequences of decades of self-serving, weak-willed leadership.

The EU should have been something Britain was proud to be a part of. A power for civilisation and freedom and enlightened cooperation on this continent.
How badly it has lost its way, that we voted to leave it.

But the understanding of every voter was that our leaders would execute the will of the people in a manner that did not threaten peace on the streets and civil order. We trusted the wisdom and expertise and capability of the people we elected to govern us, and to find solutions to the problems created by the democratic decision to part ways.

If the rioting turns into bombings and terror, our leaders will have failed.
They will deserve no more time in office - on either side of the English Channel.

 

[Ubedizzy]

Democracy alone is no substitute for moral responsibility and character in our leaders.
The referendum in 2016 and the result were consequences of decades of self-serving, weak-willed leadership.

The EU should have been something Britain was proud to be a part of. A power for civilisation and freedom and enlightened cooperation on this continent.
How badly it has lost its way, that we voted to leave it.

But the understanding of every voter was that our leaders would execute the will of the people in a manner that did not threaten peace on the streets and civil order. We trusted the wisdom and expertise and capability of the people we elected to govern us, and to find solutions to the problems created by the democratic decision to part ways.

If the rioting turns into bombings and terror, our leaders will have failed.
They will deserve no more time in office - on either side of the English Channel.

Thanks gents, as usual it’s a healthy debate with opposing views but no bile, insults or criticism of others. Very refreshing I have to say.

Overall I think the UK government had an impossible task to find a deal that everyone was happy with. That literally is impossible. My feeling is that they came up with a deal that gained EU approval (which was necessary to avoid a no-deal Brexit), avoided a hard border and infrastructure on the island of Ireland (again necessary if you want to avoid armed terrorists executing border official at the border), honoured the result of the referendum, and leaves us with a reasonable relationship with the EU which can be amended, worked on indefinitely and improved, if both sides agree.

I don’t think that Norway style deal would have been acceptable. If we had no say in the trading relationship and could have rules imposed on us, then that is clearly worse than staying in, so was a non-starter and would have been a betrayal of the vote to leave.

If the deal isn’t perfect then fine, work to improve it. But only after we’ve left and honoured democracy. What would be extremely dangerous in my opinion, would be to argue that we can’t carry out the result of the referendum of over 60 million people because a tiny, violent minority will murder, bomb and terrorise if they don’t get their way. That can’t be right. Our leaders did use their wisdom and expertise to find a workable solution. You can’t let terrorists overthrow that by the use of violence and threats otherwise it will simply encourage others to use the same tactics to achieve what they might want. Very dangerous ground indeed.

 

[The Penguin]

Although I was a remoaner I thought that at least the fisherman would be better off, but they're worse off now

 

[lardiman]

The fishermen will have to find new foreign markets, or create new markets in the UK.

If the EU doesn't want to buy our fish anymore, that's down to them.
If they try to take anything from our territorial waters, the Navy will have to discourage them.

 

[The Penguin]

The fishermen will have to find new foreign markets, or create new markets in the UK.

If the EU doesn't want to buy our fish anymore, that's down to them.
If they try to take anything from our territorial waters, the Navy will have to discourage them.

Isn't it the responsibility of the government to find new markets? Instead they have failed to make an agreement with Norway or the Faroe Islands, and haven't even tried with Greenland. The fishermen have been conned, and it's devastating for those who will lose their jobs.

 

[lardiman]

I think the Government's responsibility at the moment involves ruining leaseholder's lives by lumbering them with cladding removal costs, giving contracts to their mates and selling Ulster Unionists down the river.

How many Government ministers (or any MP's for that matter) live in buildings with cladding that needs removing?
At a wild guess - none.

Sleaze and corruption is the order of the day, but at least it's home-grown sleaze and corruption.

 

[The Penguin]

I think the Government's responsibility at the moment involves ruining leaseholder's lives by lumbering them with cladding removal costs, giving contracts to their mates and selling Ulster Unionists down the river.

How many Government ministers (or any MP's for that matter) live in buildings with cladding that needs removing?
At a wild guess - none.

Sleaze and corruption is the order of the day, but at least it's home-grown sleaze and corruption.

Yet they still have a huge lead over Labour, which increased by 1% this week. Boris can do no wrong, the lovable buffoon with his tousled hair.

 

[lardiman]

He is a cartoon character isn't he.

Capable of awful gaffes, whopping lies and dreadful policies that hurt a lot of people (well, his Government is) but he comes across as a boisterous, bumbling charmer who means well even when he talks nonsense. Like a kind of mad uncle most people wouldn't mind having in their extended family.
Totally unlike Trump, who is just arrogant, flinty and mean.

That hair too - Boris deliberately ruffles it just before he appears in public anywhere. And it works.
It adds to his bizarrely disarming charm.

Those pasty faced EU bureaucrats never stood a chance once he took over from the well-meaning Theresa May.

 

[The Penguin]

He is a cartoon character isn't he.

Capable of awful gaffes, whopping lies and dreadful policies that hurt a lot of people (well, his Government is) but he comes across as a boisterous, bumbling charmer who means well even when he talks nonsense. Like a kind of mad uncle most people wouldn't mind having in their extended family.
Totally unlike Trump, who is just arrogant, flinty and mean.

That hair too - Boris deliberately ruffles it just before he appears in public anywhere. And it works.
It adds to his bizarrely disarming charm.

Those pasty faced EU bureaucrats never stood a chance once he took over from the well-meaning Theresa May.

He's a chamelion character, who tells people whatever he thinks they want to hear, and he's very very good at that. But it's purely transcient. He doesn't care about the fishermen losing their livelihood because of his broken promises, otherwise he would have struck a deal with Norway. Now they will be sending their fish here tariff-free. Underneath it all he's a nasty piece of work, unfit for office according to Max Hastings, who sacked him from the Telegraph for lying. He's basically a fraud, and it bothers me that so many people can't see it.

 

[lardiman]

We live in such a cynical age now.
I'm not sure that many people can't see it. Perhaps many people just don't care much anymore.

The liberal rump have lost faith in the Lib Dems, that coalition Government really haunts them and Jo Swinson misread the mood of the country so badly.

Working folk have lost faith in Labour; Corbyn did that, and Starmer has no depth to him. A really poor Blair facsimile.

So if the people are going to be shafted - which many assume they will be now whoever is in power - they'd rather be shafted by Westminster than Brussels, and they'd rather be shafted by an entertaining buffoon than the wishy-washy Sir Keir.

People are tired of everything at the moment. Sick and tired of having no relief from the stresses of just getting through the day.
All they want to do is go out for a drink again, or a meal, or a party.
Without having things shoved up their noses and having to worry about a bloody disease.

 

[Butterfield]

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[lardiman]

I don't know any of the details of this ongoing story, but why do our fishermen have to fish in Norwegian waters?

Don't we now have a 200 mile wide band of sea around the UK which are now our waters again?

OK, there may be some transitional period where other fleets are allowed to fish there.
But if that is the case, our Government should be tiding our own fishermen over (if you'll pardon the expression) in the meantime.

And I always though Norway was our friend.
The next time the Germans want it, they can have it.

 

[The Penguin]

I don't know any of the details of this ongoing story, but why do our fishermen have to fish in Norwegian waters?

Don't we now have a 200 mile wide band of sea around the UK which are now our waters again?

OK, there may be some transitional period where other fleets are allowed to fish there.
But if that is the case, our Government should be tiding our own fishermen over (if you'll pardon the expression) in the meantime.

And I always though Norway was our friend.
The next time the Germans want it, they can have it.

I think it's the type of fish. Due to warming sea temperature cod have moved north out of our waters. There isn't the same demand for the type of oily fish that swim in our waters. This is typical of the type of facts that were dismissed as "Project Fear". The reason we can't fish in Norwegian waters is that our government failed to negotiate a trade deal. It takes two to tango. As Tony Benn used to say, Nations don't have friends, they have interests, and Norway is a hugely wealthy nation which has invested it oil revenue much more wisely than "GlobalBritain", and are in a position to be tough negotiators. At some point we'll have to stop looking for people to blame when reality hits us.

 

[lardiman]

Norway has the luxury of vast natural resources compared to it's tiny population, and Norway also takes virtually no interest in World affairs, or preventing military superpowers Russia and China from taking over the entire planet.

More people live in South London than live in Norway.
If our green and pleasant land could be enjoyed by just 5 million of us, I'd be happy to pull up the drawbridge and let the rest of the world get on with it too.
I'm sure NATO wouldn't mind. Or the French & Germans. left to defend democracy and freedom in Western Europe by themselves.

 

[The Penguin]

Norway has the luxury of vast natural resources compared to it's tiny population, and Norway also takes virtually no interest in World affairs, or preventing military superpowers Russia and China from taking over the entire planet.

More people live in South London than live in Norway.
.

Most of Norway is uninhabitable, and they are members of NATO. I did a cruise of the fjords a few years ago, the first and last cruise for me, and there is a gothic beauty about it all. I also bought a red woolly hat which has become my Charlton hat.

 

[lardiman]

I'd love to live there. I like cold countries.

 

[The Penguin]

I'd love to live there. I like cold countries.

I imagine they will survive global warming and rising sea levels better than most countries.

 

[Ken Shabby]

Most of Norway is uninhabitable, and they are members of NATO. I did a cruise of the fjords a few years ago, the first and last cruise for me, and there is a gothic beauty about it all. I also bought a red woolly hat which has become my Charlton hat.

I did a cruise there (and Iceland on the same itinerary). Fantastic scenery, absolutely loved it. Bit expensive mind!

 

[lardiman]

I hear the French are going to cut off the electricity supply to the Channel Islands, so we're sending in the Royal Navy!

Post-Brexit relations reach a new high
Remember Trafalgar