The EU debate - Part III

[pieguts]

One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.”

That's from Lord Ashcroft's poll. Ashcroft is Brexit supporting Tory peer.

As I am going to assume that a Brexit supporter, like Ashcroft, would not publish figures that he knew would be disputed, in assuming that that figure is well supported by the numbers and views taken in the poll.

Nobodies disputing the 33%, it was widely published and was based on data.
However, the 33% equates to 6 million votes. 6 million votes would not have got leave across the finishing line.

Tobes is trying to base his argument that those 6 million decided the outcome by ignoring the other 11 million voters who supposedly didn't vote on the immigration ticket.
What I'm saying is that the 6 million were the "money in the bank" votes for the leave campaign in the same way x million who voted to remain, based on the economy argument, were "money in the bank" votes for remain.
The voters who "swung the vote" were the others. Those like myself, who were undecided right up to the last minute.
It's the same at the GE, you have the staunch labour voters on one side of the fence, the staunch Tories on the other and the rest of us in "middle England". It's generally the middle England votes which decide the outcome and is where the campaigning is aimed at.

 

[NSIS]

Nobodies disputing the 33%, it was widely published and was based on data.
However, the 33% equates to 6 million votes. 6 million votes would not have got leave across the finishing line.

Tobes is trying to base his argument that those 6 million decided the outcome by ignoring the other 11 million voters who supposedly didn't vote on the immigration ticket.
What I'm saying is that the 6 million were the "money in the bank" votes for the leave campaign in the same way x million who voted to remain, based on the economy argument, were "money in the bank" votes for remain.
The voters who "swung the vote" were the others. Those like myself, who were undecided right up to the last minute.
It's the same at the GE, you have the staunch labour voters on one side of the fence, the staunch Tories on the other and the rest of us in "middle England". It's generally the middle England votes which decide the outcome and is where the campaigning is aimed at.

I think the logic being used is that those 6mill votes, to use a figure, were easily the difference between leave winning and losing.

The difference in votes was some 1.3mill. But let's say 1mill. So, 17 mill vote leave and 16 mill vote remain. If we say that only half of those 6 mill who voted leave may have voted remain had immigration not been an issue, then you can easily see how the numbers change.

To add, i think there are those who had genuine concerns about the level of immigration to the U.K. But equally many were narrow minded bigots who are just, well, xenophobes.

 

[Tobes]

How is my stance stupid?

You keep saying that it was the immigration voters who swung it. As it was a straight vote, leave required just 1 more vote than remain to win it. In the case of the UK that was 17+ million voters (not sure of the exact number) +1, which equates to just one more vote than half the population that was legible to vote.
Therefore it's 17 - 6 million which equals 11 million voters. I'm not quite sure why keep banging on about 6 being greater than 1.5 because it's totally irrelevant.
Moving on....the leave vote had, by admission, 6m people who voted to leave using immigration as there primary reason. A further 11 million supposedly voted for reasons other than immigration? As the leave vote campaigned for "taking back control of the country" and immigration was a large part of the message, I guess that the immigration voters could be considered the "givens" by the leave campaign (in the same way as those who voted remain based on the economy argument, as this was the remains primary campaign message).
The people who actually "swung" the vote are those who probably right up until the vote did not know which way to go. I was actually one of those voters and can assure you immigration was never going to be a reason to vote against. In the end I errored on the side of caution and the potential damage to the economy was my deciding factor.
Unfortunately, this doesn't fit with your simple, racist, bigoted, simpleton rhetoric, so can't be right, which has been your stance ever since the result was declared. Let's just continually blame the 6 million whilst ignoring the other 11 million leave voters.

I had to be careful with my analogy, as you have a track record of claiming "racist" if people have differing views than you. This is always the problem when trying to debate with people who are narrow minded and believe that they are intellectually superior.

Without those who voted with immigration as their prime factor then Leave didn't win ffs

We weren't talking about the swing voters, we were talking about the xenophobes and little Englanders who ultimately delivered Brexit. It's a fact that circa 80% of them think multiculturalism and immigration are a force for ill.

Immigration was a massive part of why Brexit happened, anyone disputing that simple fact needs to give their head a wobble

 

[Tobes]

A survey/poll, similar (but not the same before you burble) to those that have wrongly predicted the outcomes of elections and referendums over recent years, BUT more to the point, it did not ask about "little Englanders" or "xenophobes" so your use of the guesstimate is unsupported stumpy. You're just trying to spin it to claim your bigoted version as fact.

Given I'm disputing your "fact", it seems 'docile' is another word to add to the list of words some on here don't understand the meaning of.

Yeah 80% of the total leave vote thinking that multiculturalism and immigration was a force for ill, really sinks my argument

 

[DMD]

Yeah 80% of the total leave vote thinking that multiculturalism and immigration was a force for ill, really sinks my argument

Trevor Phillips, Jack Straw et al say hi.

 

[PowerSpurs]

The remain campaign always had the problem that the anti immigration faction were unpersuadable. If there were indeed 6m of them that means they needed about two thirds of the rest of the population to vote remain in order to win as I don't think there's an equivalent large unpersuadable bloc on the remain side.
This isn't such a big issue in a General Election where unpersuadable blocs exist in all parties.

 

[Stan]

Trevor Phillips, Jack Straw et al say high.

How high?

 

[Tobes]

The remain campaign always had the problem that the anti immigration faction were unpersuadable. If there were indeed 6m of them that means they needed about two thirds of the rest of the population to vote remain in order to win as I don't think there's an equivalent large unpersuadable bloc on the remain side.
This isn't such a big issue in a General Election where unpersuadable blocs exist in all parties.

The hardcore of racists and xenophobes made up some of that number, but the Leave and Farage campaigns will have created some as well. People convinced by the argument that closing the door to EU immigration was going to somehow solve the issues in our society and be a real positive that was so strong it would out weigh the economic cost of Brexit.

The story from Sunderland yesterday shows that some of those voters have since realised they were sold a pup

 

[DMD]

How high?

Whoops.

Just shows the need for controls.

 

[Tobes]

Trevor Phillips, Jack Straw et al say hi.

I've no idea what that is supposed to mean.

 

[Stan]

Whoops.

Just shows the need for controls.

Looks like Kustard is kontrolling you

 

[DMD]

I've no idea what that is supposed to mean.

They both advocate border controls and regret the mistake of multicuture, which makes them Little Englanders according to you.

Here's some more that you call Little Englanders.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/why-did-south-asians-vote-for-brexit

Why Did South Asians Vote for Brexit?

(for the hard of thinking, yes, this is edited)
The South Asian immigrants at my part-time job – all of whom are either residents or British citizens – voted Leave. Every South Asian immigrant I met before the referendum thought that even I was voting Leave, because that was the "right thing to do".

A few months ago when I visited Rochdale, a town in north-west England, to see my friend I noticed that a) Rochdale is like the movie set of East Is East, and b) the South Asians I met were supporting Brexit. A day before the referendum, my friend called me. "Everyone here is voting Leave," he said. "Why?" I asked. "Why not?" A day after the election, he was shocked that "only 60 percent voted Leave". He thought it would be higher.

Outside London, nearly every constituency with a double-digit South Asian population voted Leave. Luton has a 25 percent Asian population; Leave won there with a 19 percent majority. Places like Pendle, Oldham, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton also have high South Asian populations and voted Leave with large majorities. The only exception was Leicester, with its 30 percent Asian population – narrowly a Remain town, with a 2 percent majority.

For months before the referendum, everyone I spoke to in Newham – the local grocer; the Asian barbers; the chicken shop employees; the restaurants owners; estate agents; the underpaid workers; the tax-avoiding shop owners – supported Brexit. The arguments were the same: the rent prices, the NHS, the benefit cuts. The blame: immigration. More than this, there was the hope that once European migration stops, migration from South Asian countries can restart

 

[Tobes]

Anti multicutural Little Englanders.

Here's some more that you call Little Englanders.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/why-did-south-asians-vote-for-brexit

Why Did South Asians Vote for Brexit?

(for the hard of thinking, yes, this is edited)
The South Asian immigrants at my part-time job – all of whom are either residents or British citizens – voted Leave. Every South Asian immigrant I met before the referendum thought that even I was voting Leave, because that was the "right thing to do".

A few months ago when I visited Rochdale, a town in north-west England, to see my friend I noticed that a) Rochdale is like the movie set of East Is East, and b) the South Asians I met were supporting Brexit. A day before the referendum, my friend called me. "Everyone here is voting Leave," he said. "Why?" I asked. "Why not?" A day after the election, he was shocked that "only 60 percent voted Leave". He thought it would be higher.

Outside London, nearly every constituency with a double-digit South Asian population voted Leave. Luton has a 25 percent Asian population; Leave won there with a 19 percent majority. Places like Pendle, Oldham, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton also have high South Asian populations and voted Leave with large majorities. The only exception was Leicester, with its 30 percent Asian population – narrowly a Remain town, with a 2 percent majority.

For months before the referendum, everyone I spoke to in Newham – the local grocer; the Asian barbers; the chicken shop employees; the restaurants owners; estate agents; the underpaid workers; the tax-avoiding shop owners – supported Brexit. The arguments were the same: the rent prices, the NHS, the benefit cuts. The blame: immigration. More than this, there was the hope that once European migration stops, migration from South Asian countries can restart

And you think the colour of their skin somehow disproves my point?

Firstly it's an anecdotal piece, however they're blaming EU immigration for societies woes - the NHS, benefit levels and rent prices - I wonder where they got that idea from?

 

[DMD]

And you think the colour of their skin somehow disproves my point?

Firstly it's an anecdotal piece, however they're blaming EU immigration for societies woes - the NHS, benefit levels and rent prices - I wonder where they got that idea from?

Jack Straw's very pale for a black man, but I don't see skin colour mentioned, apart from by you. A tad prejudiced and bigoted of you, stumpy.

I doubt Straw or Phillips voted leave, but the others did, and mentioned immigration, so by your 'logic' they're xenophobic little Englanders.

 

[Tobes]

Jack Straw's very pale for a black man, but I don't see skin colour mentioned, apart from by you. A tad prejudiced and bigoted of you, stumpy.

I doubt Straw or Phillips voted leave, but the others did, and mentioned immigration, so by your 'logic' they're xenophobic little Englanders.

I see why you edited that piece Wooden Top, as some of it doesn't quite fit with your narrative eh...typical bizzie

What the **** has Jack Straw got to do with this discussion?

Would that be the same Jack Straw who's working with his son and Mandelson to try and stop Brexit btw?

 

[Tobes]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...m-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov?CMP=share_btn_tw

We voted for it, but if it makes us worse off we'll not have it.

Stupid ****s.

 

[DMD]

I see why you edited that piece Wooden Top, as some of it doesn't quite fit with your narrative eh...typical bizzie

What the **** has Jack Straw got to do with this discussion?

Would that be the same Jack Straw who's working with his son and Mandelson to try and stop Brexit btw?

If it was a case of not fitting, I'd hardly have highlighted the edit and left the link to the story that makes your daft claim more laughable. Fair play for finally opening one though stumpy.

Yep, Jack Straw probably voted remain, he's the same little Englander that said;

"The former home secretary Jack Straw has admitted that dropping immigration restrictions on eastern European migrants was a "spectacular mistake" on Labour's part."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/13/jack-straw-labour-mistake-poles

 

[Tobes]

If it was a case of not fitting, I'd hardly have highlighted the edit and left the link to the story that makes your daft claim more laughable. Fair play for finally opening one though stumpy.

Yep, Jack Straw probably voted remain, he's the same little Englander that said;

"The former home secretary Jack Straw has admitted that dropping immigration restrictions on eastern European migrants was a "spectacular mistake" on Labour's part."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/13/jack-straw-labour-mistake-poles

Straw and the Labour Govt at the time did **** up allowing completely free access before the 2011 deadline, as they failed to tackle the long term feckless at a time when we should have had virtually full employment.

However, the immigrants have created a net benefit to the economy and as stated in that piece are less likely to be claiming benefits than the UK born populous

All of which has **** all to do with the point, as Straw is vehemently pro Remain.

 

[NSIS]

They both advocate border controls and regret the mistake of multicuture, which makes them Little Englanders according to you.

Here's some more that you call Little Englanders.

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/why-did-south-asians-vote-for-brexit

Why Did South Asians Vote for Brexit?

(for the hard of thinking, yes, this is edited)
The South Asian immigrants at my part-time job – all of whom are either residents or British citizens – voted Leave. Every South Asian immigrant I met before the referendum thought that even I was voting Leave, because that was the "right thing to do".

A few months ago when I visited Rochdale, a town in north-west England, to see my friend I noticed that a) Rochdale is like the movie set of East Is East, and b) the South Asians I met were supporting Brexit. A day before the referendum, my friend called me. "Everyone here is voting Leave," he said. "Why?" I asked. "Why not?" A day after the election, he was shocked that "only 60 percent voted Leave". He thought it would be higher.

Outside London, nearly every constituency with a double-digit South Asian population voted Leave. Luton has a 25 percent Asian population; Leave won there with a 19 percent majority. Places like Pendle, Oldham, Sandwell, Walsall and Wolverhampton also have high South Asian populations and voted Leave with large majorities. The only exception was Leicester, with its 30 percent Asian population – narrowly a Remain town, with a 2 percent majority.

For months before the referendum, everyone I spoke to in Newham – the local grocer; the Asian barbers; the chicken shop employees; the restaurants owners; estate agents; the underpaid workers; the tax-avoiding shop owners – supported Brexit. The arguments were the same: the rent prices, the NHS, the benefit cuts. The blame: immigration. More than this, there was the hope that once European migration stops, migration from South Asian countries can restart

I think those with that attitude, come under the 'I'm alright Jack' heading.

If some of those people came to the Uk because they had to flee their homes - a good example being those asians who were given very short notice by Idi Amin to get out of Uganda, Now! then they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to deny others the safe haven and opportunity to live a good life that they were given.

 

[DMD]

Straw and the Labour Govt at the time did **** up allowing completely free access before the 2011 deadline, as they failed to tackle the long term feckless at a time when we should have had virtually full employment.

However, the immigrants have created a net benefit to the economy and as stated in that piece are less likely to be claiming benefits than the UK born populous

All of which has **** all to do with the point, as Straw is vehemently pro Remain.

I think those with that attitude, come under the 'I'm alright Jack' heading.

If some of those people came to the Uk because they had to flee their homes - a good example being those asians who were given very short notice by Idi Amin to get out of Uganda, Now! then they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to deny others the safe haven and opportunity to live a good life that they were given.

Like the poll mentioned initially, none of that makes them xenophobic little Englanders as was stumpy's claim.

As for the highighted part, they're not trying to deny it, they're looking at exactly the opposite.