The EU debate - Part II

[NSIS]

You hard left, trotsky!

If you'd looked into it you'd realise it cost us more now we've privatised the railways and are subsidising the network lines/franchises (whatever they're called), than when it was nationalised

And, do tell, how are you going to pay the hundreds of billions it would take to renationalise all those utilities?!

And, please don't tell me tax the rich!

 

[PINKIE]

And you don't think they performed poorly beforehand!....

Mate, I don't know how long you've lived in Spain, but since privatisation the railways have had nothing but underinvestment, increasing prices, lack of capacity, old rolling stock, late trains. The sell off of the rail network, stations and operators to separate companies has created a culture of them all blaming each other for the problems. All the while the shareholders get richer.

As for energy companies, they are almost as bad as the banks. Fixing tariffs, increasing prices, not telling customers how to get the best deal etc, whilst their profits soar. The are run like a ****ing cartel.

There's nothing 'hard left' about bringing them under the umbrella of govt. Public services should be run for the public benefit, not as another cash cow for a bunch of public schoolboys.

 

[NSIS]

I don't think that a majority see nationalisation of transport and utilities as far left and many non labour supporters are in unions. If you think that keeping the NHS in public hands is far left then a majority of the electorate are far left.
Only a small percentage of the MSM publish fully accurate reports about Labour's new policies. Many publish nothing at all and about 20% deliberately publish inaccurate reports.
Support for Labour in by-elections and mayoral elections has increased since Corbyn became leader so it is disingenuous to suggest that people will not vote for Labour with him as leader

I disagree, Paul.

We could go around in circles forever and never agree on this.

My view is that Corbyn is completely and utterly unelectable, just as Foot was. All opinion polls showing the Tories with double digit lead bear this out.

 

[PINKIE]

And, do tell, how are you going to pay the hundreds of billions it would take to renationalise all those utilities?!

And, please don't tell me tax the rich!

One way is to borrow to invest and then pay it off from the profits of the services. Far better to invest money from public services back into those services than to make profit for private shareholders.

 

[Tobes]

My view is that Corbyn is completely and utterly unelectable, just as Foot was. All opinion polls showing the Tories with double digit lead bear this out.

Is the right answer

 

[NSIS]

Mate, I don't know how long you've lived in Spain, but since privatisation the railways have had nothing but underinvestment, increasing prices, lack of capacity, old rolling stock, late trains. The sell off of the rail network, stations and operators to separate companies has created a culture of them all blaming each other for the problems. All the while the shareholders get richer.

As for energy companies, they are almost as bad as the banks. Fixing tariffs, increasing prices, not telling customers how to get the best deal etc, whilst their profits soar. The are run like a ****ing cartel.

There's nothing 'hard left' about bringing them under the umbrella of govt. Public services should be run for the public benefit, not as another cash cow for a bunch of public schoolboys.

I travelled on those railways for over 40 years, on and off.

They were **** and unreliable then. They're **** and unreliable now.

Plus ca change!..

 

[steveninaster1]

Dispatches at the minute are looking into the labour market in Poland, and other EU countries. Seems they're making up their labour gap with slaves from North Korea. The North Korean State helps out because they make a profit on the deal, which they use to fund their nuclear weapons programme.

https://news.vice.com/article/cash-...ans-are-working-themselves-to-death-in-europe
Old news and shut down months ago once it was discovered

 

[NSIS]

One way is to borrow to invest and then pay it off from the profits of the services. Far better to invest money from public services back into those services than to make profit for private shareholders.

Interest rates are low, it may be possible to borrow some of it. But the national debt is sky high already, increasing it by a few hundred billion would send it into orbit!

And if interest rates rise..

 

[PINKIE]

I travelled on those railways for over 40 years, on and off.

They were **** and unreliable then. They're **** and unreliable now.

Plus ca change!..

I traveled on those railways too and I still do now. I can tell you for a fact that they are much worse and much more expensive today ! There has been a serious lack of investment in the railways because it's been syphoned off by the shareholders. We're now having to look at a tax payer funded HS2 just to link the north with the south, why didn't the private companies invest in this if it was dig a good idea to sell the rail network to them ?

 

[Tobes]

One way is to borrow to invest and then pay it off from the profits of the services. Far better to invest money from public services back into those services than to make profit for private shareholders.

If the public purse is having to use the operating profit to pay the interest on the debt used to repurchase the asset, then where's the benefit?

One of the reasons Thatcher sold off the utilities was due to the vast wastage, union power and inefficiencies

Whilst far from perfect now, just look at the average local council in this country to see how that outdated culture still exists and is woefully inefficient compared to the private sector. Hence the reason they continue to outsource services, in order to rid themselves of the issue.

 

[paultheplug]

And, do tell, how are you going to pay the hundreds of billions it would take to renationalise all those utilities?!

And, please don't tell me tax the rich!

His plan is to let the franchises run out and allow a publicly owned company to take them over. No hundreds of billions required

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

It's got **** all to do with being similar to the Tories

And everything to do with having policies that the majority will find attractive

The far left bollocks that dates back to a **** bygone era of the 70's and beyond isn't what people want. There's nothing wrong with either embracing business or making people accountable for themselves as basic principles. Where Labour and the Tories should differ is how those principles are embodied in policy.

The core vote in this country are barely touched by austerity (if at all, tangibly) least of all Tory voters. I'd wager that the majority believe that the benefits cuts that have capped incomes for the unemployed are a good thing btw. As preople in work get ****ed off with career doleites.

It seems to me that a lot of people want anti-austerity rather than austerity (or abstaining/agreeing with it).
Lucky for you not to be touched by austerity.

There's millions using food banks in the UK. The majority of the 5.5million public sector workers (civil servants, local gov, police, nhs ect) have been hit by austerity - job losses, wage freezes, budget cuts, increased workloads ect as has the armed forces.

Cost of living has increased while wages have decreased in real time leading to record numbers living under the poverty line, including so many children that the Tories redefined the stats.

As you can see by the backlash against Southwestern trains, there's definitely appetite to renationalise if the logical arguments are put forward properly.

The majority of the public seem against further privitisation of the NHS and keeping it 'free at the point of access'. Seems sensible.

There's a lot of concern among younger voters, and those with children reaching college/uni age about tuition fees and uni standards. Not unreasonable to think that reversing this would seem popular. Its hardly a revolutionary Trotsky policy.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

If the public purse is having to use the operating profit to pay the interest on the debt used to repurchase the asset, then where's the benefit?

One of the reasons Thatcher sold off the utilities was due to the vast wastage, union power and inefficiencies

Whilst far from perfect now, just look at the average local council in this country to see how that outdated culture still exists and is woefully inefficient compared to the private sector. Hence the reason they continue to outsource services, in order to rid themselves of the issue.

You think the private sector running public sector contracts is efficient?!?

 

[PINKIE]

Interest rates are low, it may be possible to borrow some of it. But the national debt is sky high already, increasing it by a few hundred billion would send it into orbit!

And if interest rates rise..

National debt is sky high. But austerity hasn't fixed it. I'd rather see us borrow to invest, build houses, schools, hospitals and infrastructure and allow the economy to grow by creating jobs thereby creating better tax revenue and giving people more money in their pockets to spend.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

And, do tell, how are you going to pay the hundreds of billions it would take to renationalise all those utilities?!

And, please don't tell me tax the rich!

I keep telling you, and for some reason you keep ignoring me, we pay more now the networks are privatised than when they were nationalised.

As Pail says, Corbyn had said many times, he will let franchise contracts expire and renationalise them one by one as they do

 

[NSIS]

His plan is to let the franchises run out and allow a publicly owned company to take them over. No hundreds of billions required

Without looking, I don't know about how long we're talking about?

Secondly, if people are complaining about under investment now, what do think would happen once these companies realise that their franchises won't be renewed?

 

[NSIS]

I keep telling you, and for some reason you keep ignoring me, we pay more now the networks are privatised than when they were nationalised.

As Pail says, Corbyn had said many times, he will let franchise contracts expire and renationalise them one by one as they do

And, I've just replied to that.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Interest rates are low, it may be possible to borrow some of it. But the national debt is sky high already, increasing it by a few hundred billion would send it into orbit!

And if interest rates rise..

The debt has increased because of the austerity policies of the Tories.

As someone said "you cant cut your way to prosperity"

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

And, I've just replied to that.

Where? You said something about it costing billions, but i didnt see anything else

 

[NSIS]

National debt is sky high. But austerity hasn't fixed it. I'd rather see us borrow to invest, build houses, schools, hospitals and infrastructure and allow the economy to grow by creating jobs thereby creating better tax revenue and giving people more money in their pockets to spend.

It seems to me that a lot of people want anti-austerity rather than austerity (or abstaining/agreeing with it).
Lucky for you not to be touched by austerity.

There's millions using food banks in the UK. The majority of the 5.5million public sector workers (civil servants, local gov, police, nhs ect) have been hit by austerity - job losses, wage freezes, budget cuts, increased workloads ect as has the armed forces.

Cost of living has increased while wages have decreased in real time leading to record numbers living under the poverty line, including so many children that the Tories redefined the stats.

As you can see by the backlash against Southwestern trains, there's definitely appetite to renationalise if the logical arguments are put forward properly.

The majority of the public seem against further privitisation of the NHS and keeping it 'free at the point of access'. Seems sensible.

There's a lot of concern among younger voters, and those with children reaching college/uni age about tuition fees and uni standards. Not unreasonable to think that reversing this would seem popular. Its hardly a revolutionary Trotsky policy.

Many reasons, take a look at the polls.
Corbyn appeals to a narrow base of electors. If Labour go into a GE with him at their head, they'll be annihilated