The EU debate - Part II

[Smirnoffpriest]

What will happen to the Labour party if JC wins, as the MPs dont want him?

Probably what JC has said he'd do and increase local democracy of the party, so that the people can actually get the chance to decide if these MPs represent them, and if not then to select MPs that represent the people. I'd imagine people like Hilary Benn and Chukka Umunna would be off the gravy train and would no longer have seats of any relevance. Angela Eagle's CLP don't support her and considering she's made up claims of bullying and homophobia against her own party members, I can't see her keeping her seat.

Then, as opposed to the massive damage the PLP and the 'chicken coup' have done to the party at the time when the tories were at their most vulnerable, we can then present a united opposition and start hammering the Tories again, forcing them to back down on austerity policies.

OR

The PLP will keep taking the party and JC to court and keep smearing him at every opportunity and will destroy any credibility in the party just so that they don't lose their cushy seats and there is a united neo-liberal front across the main political parties...

 

[Tobes]

Probably what JC has said he'd do and increase local democracy of the party, so that the people can actually get the chance to decide if these MPs represent them, and if not then to select MPs that represent the people. I'd imagine people like Hilary Benn and Chukka Umunna would be off the gravy train and would no longer have seats of any relevance. Angela Eagle's CLP don't support her and considering she's made up claims of bullying and homophobia against her own party members, I can't see her keeping her seat.

Then, as opposed to the massive damage the PLP and the 'chicken coup' have done to the party at the time when the tories were at their most vulnerable, we can then present a united opposition and start hammering the Tories again, forcing them to back down on austerity policies.

OR

The PLP will keep taking the party and JC to court and keep smearing him at every opportunity and will destroy any credibility in the party just so that they don't lose their cushy seats and there is a united neo-liberal front across the main political parties...

More likely is that the MP's will form a fresh party, maybe in unison with the Liberals and it'll be like the SDP 30 years later.

Leaving Corbyns Labour as some left wing irrelevance.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

More likely is that the MP's will form a fresh party, maybe in unison with the Liberals and it'll be like the SDP 30 years later.

Leaving Corbyns Labour as some left wing irrelevance.

I'd say if the PLP MPs are stupid enough to split then it'll leave the whole left and centre as a fragmented irrelevance with the Tories (especially with the changes in party funding, constituency boundaries and support of the right wing press - and the millions thrown off the electoral register).

I can't see how anyone thinks that a party lead by a man who can't get more than a handful of people who share his own ideology to turn up to his speech with the promise of free ice cream is more likely to make Labour electable, than a man who has a grassroots base of hundreds of thousands, despite a year long campaign of smears and backstabbing, and mirrors similar campaigns across the world (Sanders, Podemos, Austria Greens, Syriza ect).

It's madness. It's like choosing the most unpopular person, who supports austerity one week then parrots Corbyn's policies the next, is somehow going to win back Scotland from the SNP, the English and Welsh heartlands from UKIP and Southern England from the Tories, while convincing millions of disenfranchised to vote.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

More likely is that the MP's will form a fresh party, maybe in unison with the Liberals and it'll be like the SDP 30 years later.

Leaving Corbyns Labour as some left wing irrelevance.

What do you think is going to happen if Corbyn loses? Do you think his half a million plus supporters are going to trust the PLP/NEC again and be happy with a swing back to the right? Do you think that Owen Smith will stick to his 'left wing' policies? Do you think these will be so eminently more electable than anyone else and convince millions of supporters to vote Labour?

 

[Tobes]

What do you think is going to happen if Corbyn loses? Do you think his half a million plus supporters are going to trust the PLP/NEC again and be happy with a swing back to the right? Do you think that Owen Smith will stick to his 'left wing' policies? Do you think these will be so eminently more electable than anyone else and convince millions of supporters to vote Labour?

Corbyn won't lose, so it's a moot point

 

[Tobes]

I'd say if the PLP MPs are stupid enough to split then it'll leave the whole left and centre as a fragmented irrelevance with the Tories (especially with the changes in party funding, constituency boundaries and support of the right wing press - and the millions thrown off the electoral register).

I can't see how anyone thinks that a party lead by a man who can't get more than a handful of people who share his own ideology to turn up to his speech with the promise of free ice cream is more likely to make Labour electable, than a man who has a grassroots base of hundreds of thousands, despite a year long campaign of smears and backstabbing, and mirrors similar campaigns across the world (Sanders, Podemos, Austria Greens, Syriza ect).

It's madness. It's like choosing the most unpopular person, who supports austerity one week then parrots Corbyn's policies the next, is somehow going to win back Scotland from the SNP, the English and Welsh heartlands from UKIP and Southern England from the Tories, while convincing millions of disenfranchised to vote.

What's idiotic is the fact that Corbyn didn't stand aside when 172 of the MP's he supposed to be leading, told him he wasn't up to the job.

The fact that no-one that credible has stood against him, is down to the fact that they know the grass roots will ensure that he wins.

What Labour will be left with is a fractured Westminster party that will be not fully behind the leader and will therefore never provide both a strong opposition to the Tories and an electable alternative come the next election.

It's an absolute mess, and it's all down to one man.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Corbyn won't lose, so it's a moot point

That's not the question I asked though

 

[Tobes]

That's not the question I asked though

It's a pointless imponderable, as it won't happen.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

What's idiotic is the fact that Corbyn didn't stand aside when 172 of the MP's he supposed to be leading, told him he wasn't up to the job.

The fact that no-one that credible has stood against him, is down to the fact that they know the grass roots will ensure that he wins.

What Labour will be left with is a fractured Westminster party that will be not fully behind the leader and will therefore never provide both a strong opposition to the Tories and an electable alternative come the next election.

It's an absolute mess, and it's all down to one man.

So it's idiotic that Corbyn fulfilled his democratic mandate - don't forget he won by the biggest landslide of any leader of any party in history less than a year ago! And that he chose the wishes of his party members over a coup engineered by a few Blairites and funded by some dodgy people.

And the fact that this coup couldn't find anyone credible to stand against him is because... he's so popular and the other politicians aren't popular? Jeez that's a pretty huge negative!

The coup and the split has nothing to do with Corbyn, it is down to the MPs who don't listen to their constituents and have tried to firstly undermine their leader, then pull off a undemocratic coup, then when that has failed, they've tried to take him to the high court while keeping around 130,000 members from voting, priced other people out of voting by increasing the price of the vote over 8 fold, all the time smearing the leader against the CLPs wishes and making up false claims of homophobia, bullying and attacks - and this at the time when the Tories were at their most vulnerable, divided, leaderless and ripe for attacking.

It is an absolute mess I agree - and the responsibility lays at the door of the chicken coup orchestrators. And those that followed Alastair Darlings ministrations!

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

It's a pointless imponderable, as it won't happen.

These 172 MPs must have some magical power, I mean they can't even win over their own party members - people who share their own beliefs and ideology, yet apparently they can take a fractured, split, new party to political relevance and take on Tories...

 

[Tobes]

So it's idiotic that Corbyn fulfilled his democratic mandate - don't forget he won by the biggest landslide of any leader of any party in history less than a year ago! And that he chose the wishes of his party members over a coup engineered by a few Blairites and funded by some dodgy people.

And the fact that this coup couldn't find anyone credible to stand against him is because... he's so popular and the other politicians aren't popular? Jeez that's a pretty huge negative!

The coup and the split has nothing to do with Corbyn, it is down to the MPs who don't listen to their constituents and have tried to firstly undermine their leader, then pull off a undemocratic coup, then when that has failed, they've tried to take him to the high court while keeping around 130,000 members from voting, priced other people out of voting by increasing the price of the vote over 8 fold, all the time smearing the leader against the CLPs wishes and making up false claims of homophobia, bullying and attacks - and this at the time when the Tories were at their most vulnerable, divided, leaderless and ripe for attacking.

It is an absolute mess I agree - and the responsibility lays at the door of the chicken coup orchestrators. And those that followed Alastair Darlings ministrations!

Your problem is that you consistently confuse - constituents with party faithful, the 2 are not mutually inclusive.

I vote Labour, and I think Corbyn is a complete cock

 

[NSIS]

The latest Yougov poll showed the Tories with a 14% lead over Labour. Every recent poll shows a double digit lead for the Conservatives.

That's a whitewash in real terms. Corbyn is not the man to unite the Labour Party, and I also believe that the party will split due to his intransigence.

There is the best part of 5 yrs for a new Centre-left alliance to be formed and get it's policies across to the electorate.

It's my belief that run properly with no internal fueding it would appeal to a large proportion of the electorate,

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

The latest Yougov poll showed the Tories with a 14% lead over Labour. Every recent poll shows a double digit lead for the Conservatives.

That's a whitewash in real terms. Corbyn is not the man to unite the Labour Party, and I also believe that the party will split due to his intransigence.

There is the best part of 5 yrs for a new Centre-left alliance to be formed and get it's policies across to the electorate.

It's my belief that run properly with no internal fueding it would appeal to a large proportion of the electorate,

Yes, thanks to the coup, trust in the Labour party has fallen to a huge low and instead of taking it to the Tories they have undermined any trust in our party. The result you can see in the opinion polls you quoted.

 

[Tobes]

Yes, thanks to the coup, trust in the Labour party has fallen to a huge low and instead of taking it to the Tories they have undermined any trust in our party. The result you can see in the opinion polls you quoted.

The 'coup' was a direct result of Corbyns lacklustre performance in the referendum, and reflected the general consensus of public opinion outside of the labour party membership. His popularity fell amongst them as well btw....

The man's a life long protestor who seemingly has the leadership skills of a shop steward.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

Your problem is that you consistently confuse - constituents with party faithful, the 2 are not mutually inclusive.

I vote Labour, and I think Corbyn is a complete cock

I ask you again, what do you think the result is going to be if we decide to go against the trends happening around the world, chose another tory-lite candidate and lose the hundreds of thousands of supporters that Corbyn has attracted back to the party. You know the people that canvass, leaflet, encourage and promote the party on the ground and do the donkey work to convince people to vote Labour. If these leave, after they've been smeared by the PLP, denied their democratic right to vote by the NEC, had their democratically chose leader harpooned by their own PLP, not the Tories. If these leave (and take all their subs with them), and if some of the unions who support Corbyn withdraw their support - such as the Firefighters union. These people could defect to other parties, making Labour's job even harder - we saw what happened in Scotland when Labour ignored the public's wishes and kept promoting tory-lite policies - they got hammered. They now need to win back seats from the SNP to stand any chance in the next election.

I suppose the other option is that these supporters stay in the Constituency Labour Parties (the local labour parties) and then vote out the MPs involved in this coup, and keep doing that until they get somebody like Corbyn who represents them in again.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

The 'coup' was a direct result of Corbyns lacklustre performance in the referendum, and reflected the general consensus of public opinion outside of the labour party membership. His popularity fell amongst them as well btw....

The man's a life long protestor who seemingly has the leadership skills of a shop steward.

Wrong. The coup was organised over 6 months before the referendum.

 

[Archers Road]

Wrong. The coup was organised over 6 months before the referendum.

You obviously feel passionately that Corbyn is the right person to lead the Labour Party. Fair enough. Some of us disagree. Equally fair enough, I hope you'll agree.

Can I just suggest that, once this leadership contest is completed, and whatever the outcome, we can all dispense with the name calling and the knocking lumps out of each other? If Corbyn wins again - & he's clear favourite do so - then us moderate Labour Party members will have to accept it. It'll be a lot easier to do so if the left can dispense with all this nonsense about "Blairite Coups" etc. This is 21st Century Britain not Russia in the 1930s. A bit of respect for each other's positions is now required if the Labour Party is ever going to recover from this crisis. And please, no "but you lot started it" accusations from either side.

 

[Smirnoffpriest]

You obviously feel passionately that Corbyn is the right person to lead the Labour Party. Fair enough. Some of us disagree. Equally fair enough, I hope you'll agree.

Can I just suggest that, once this leadership contest is completed, and whatever the outcome, we can all dispense with the name calling and the knocking lumps out of each other? If Corbyn wins again - & he's clear favourite do so - then us moderate Labour Party members will have to accept it. It'll be a lot easier to do so if the left can dispense with all this nonsense about "Blairite Coups" etc. This is 21st Century Britain not Russia in the 1930s. A bit of respect for each other's positions is now required if the Labour Party is ever going to recover from this crisis. And please, no "but you lot started it" accusations from either side.

I consider myself a moderate as well, i agree that name calling does no one any good and should be dispenced with, we do need a different type of politics, done with honesty.

But i didnt name call in the post above, i just pointed out that the coup wasnt a hapstance thing that occurred, it was a pre planned coup organised 6 months before the referendum. Im not sure what's wrong with using facts in discussions.

 

[Archers Road]

I consider myself a moderate as well, i agree that name calling does no one any good and should be dispenced with, we do need a different type of politics, done with honesty.

But i didnt name call in the post above, i just pointed out that the coup wasnt a hapstance thing that occurred, it was a pre planned coup organised 6 months before the referendum. Im not sure what's wrong with using facts in discussions.

You calling an opinion a fact doesn't make it one. It's still your opinion, one I don't happen to share.

It's my opinion Corbyn has little to no chance of leading Labour to a general election victory. But it is just an opinion, and I am prepared to countenance the possibility that I may be wrong.

It's the lack of self doubt and inability to see beyond their own point of view, that I find most disturbing about the radical left.

 

[armchairblue]

The Labour Party