The Emperor's New Clothes

[St. Luigi Scrosoppi]

And the alliteration. Any students of GCSE English on this board should study your scripts Godders.

Alliteration be buggered. I was just encapsulating the way far too many Saints fans think. Think small and you'll stay small.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

I think it is more important what the owner/board think...I can think as small as I like or as big as I like and it won't make any difference.

 

[fatletiss]

Alliteration be buggered. I was just encapsulating the way far too many Saints fans think. Think small and you'll stay small.

Trust me, I spent years 'thinking' big.... it doesn't always work.

 

[Archers Road]

Yeah well getting too ambitious is just so destructive and demoralising. Think small stay safe. Keep your head down. Know your place.

Or whinge like buggery when things don't go your way?

 

[Beddy]

Is thinking big being too ambitious? Or is thinking small being too negative? Is wanting your Hobby/sport to do exceedingly well, over the top? Why the hell would it be? You don't enter any competition not to win it, no matter what the odds. You want your team to win no matter who they are playing you also want your team to be there or there abouts' at the top of their game. I don't see any posters on here saying we are bigger than Chelsea or Liverpool et el. Only that we want to compete and compete at the highest level.
Sometimes you have to accept facts and at this moment we are not on top of our game, we are not playing as well as we can. We can do better and yes we are a smaller club in the PL. So if that is thinking small for wanting more than we are doing and knowing we can do better, then for me time stands still!! As we all know that 'aint true......We all have an opinion and entitled to it, but to suggest people are thinking too small because they see things differently is in my opinion more negative!!

 

[Pelletron]

I honestly think if we lose to Palace, Spurs and Arsenal that he will get definitely sacked. And that is certainly possible the way things are going at the moment.

I'd be very surprised if that were the case, unless something else was going on behind the scenes.
Haven't we only lost to Stoke and Man City in the league since we were all fine? I swear we are some sort of marker for teams above us in the league - whenever we win, they all win too; whenever we lose, they all drop points themselves. It was my frustration last season with Spurs - they would just mirror our results so we couldn't get above them.

Anyway, seriously hope we turn this around for Spurs. As per my usual plea when this fixture rolls around.

 

[Pelletron]

I wasn't expecting any improvement on last season. We're 12th and going backwards. If we lose the next three we will probably be 15th (possibly 16th or 14th, but unlikely) and still going backwards. Then we'd have West Ham away, which I can't see us winning either. He'd be in huge danger of getting sacked if he lost the next three. No points, or one point, in the next four sees us in real danger of being dragged into the relegation battle. Like I said, hopefully he can turn things around quickly. I'm not panicking and I don't have particularly high expectations. After watching us in League One (attended every home game when we were L1, I was able to attend more then than I am now) I'm realistic.



Let's see what happens. If the board is ruthless (and has an option lined up) then he'll be gone in three games if he doesn't get a win, certainly in four. Like I said, hopefully he can turn it around. After all my username is his nickname, and he is my picture, so it's not like I am out to get him! I just think he's put himself into a bad position now and is under pressure for the first time.

I reckon our Board is a level-headed one. I believe they are realistic about this project, and that stability - at least at managerial level - is key to our model working. I think they would allow Ron a transitional season to round off his contract, given what business decisions have been made regarding players. Even if I was a neutral, I think I would have more faith in Saints' long game than any other team's in the entire English league system. We see static (ie. zero) or backwards momentum, but behind the scenes they will have a good view of what's coming next in our plans, and will base any decisions on that rather than losing to the four clubs mentioned.

Insane that it's four London clubs in a row, incidentally.

 

[Pelletron]

Can't believe this thread is still being taken seriously. Last year we lost a couple of key players in the summer, started well, had a blip Nov / Dec and finished a little stronger. This year we lost a couple of key players in the summer, started well, had a blip Nov / Dec and and hopefully will finish a little stronger. We're 2 points off 6th place with a stronger squad than last year.

Ron is no closer to being sacked than I am being the next manager.

Hmm, think he probably is. Infact, Pep Guardiola is closer to being sacked than you are to being manager at the league system's bottom club, but I get your point...

 

[Pelletron]

Love the sentiment Mowgli, but Ron has to be closer to being sacked than you are to being next manager purely because it requires the vacancy for you to then be eligible

On a side-note, I agree he's not that likely to get sacked (40/1 next to go), and there will most likely be a mutual parting of ways after a couple of mid-table (8th-14th place) finishes. Koeman may then say he wasn't given the resources to compete, and the board may respond to say he didn't kick us on quite as well as they expected and point at a lack of youth development (future sales).

Seemingly running counter to what I said on the same subject a few posts ago, I do need to point out here that regardless of when Ron is sacked (if he is at all), there is a 100% guarantee of there being a next manager (natural and financial disasters notwithstanding). It isn't the case that there is only a next manager once Ron is sacked. So in theory, the vacancy doesn't need to exist for Mowgli's chances of being next manager to improve (i would say the odds of that happening remain the same now and when the vacancy exists!). They could have started talks behind the scenes for Mowgli to replace Ron whenever he choose to go, be that next year or in ten years' time.

 

[Le Tissier's Laces]

I think he's a good manager. I also thought Pochettino was a good manager.

We've had some questionable loans/purchases that I think RK or Erwin had a hand in -- Martina, Elia. But then I felt like we largely got Alderweireld because of RK. And Clasie (more later). OTOH, MP probably had a big say in bringing in Oswaldo and that was a disaster. Also, while the Black Box supposedly had already identified Tadic and Pelle, I think RK had some input/influence there.

I think MP did a better job of playing the young players. But I think that the impact of this might be overstated. Shaw was just good. I think Chambers to some extent as well. There's no doubt that MP still made a greater effort. I don't doubt his commitment.

Tactically, I would rate them about equally. MP stuck with one style, but he drilled the players on it well and it was well-organized and used to great effect. But it was one-dimensional. I think RK is more flexible, and allows players more freedom on the pitch. I think people tend to notice the supposed bad moves more than the good. For example, I don't feel like there were that many complaints prior to the Villa match as to the lineup. And he put on Juanmi and Romeu as subs and both played well and Romeu grabbed the goal for us. And yet, after the game there was much carping over RK's choices... and oddly complaints about Clasie being bad even though he didn't play.

Both seem to rank highly in man management as the players were very loyal to MP and him leaving may have hastened some departures to some extent. OTOH, it seems like Clasie loves RK and otherwise might not have come here. Elia certainly loved him.

Quite frankly, RK has had to deal with things MP never had to. He never saw Shaw, Lallana, Clyne, Schneiderlin, etc. poached because he left before his players did. And that has to be a big point in RK's favor for me. He came to a team in disarray and fixed it. And handled a second exodus quite well. MP quit. And did it in a bad way, IMO.

I like them both. But I also think that neither are irreplaceable. My opinion is that bad managers are really, really bad and can single-handedly wreck a team. But there are many managers who are good and somewhat interchangeable. It's kind of a matter of timing as far as having the right talent, and also having the right mix of tactic/personality with the squad.

Honestly, I think Adkins was better than both when he was here. Toward the end of his tenure, I basically for the first time ever had gotten to the point where I just gave him carte blanche and never questioned his moves. At the same time, it's kind of hard for me to see foreign players and real world class talents digging his Adkinisms or responding to his style. Or him being able to attract the same quality of players. So Adkins was the best during his time, but doubt he would be the best now.

As for the squad being weaker... yes, in my opinion it is. And no, Clasie is not Schneiderlin and that hurts. But let's be real. It's crazy to expect that anyone was going to come in and just step into Schneiderlin's shoes. We did extremely well just to replace Alderweireld with VVD. You lose Lallana, Lovren (he was good for us, after all), Alderweireld, Clyne, Chambers, Schneiderlin, an icon like Lambert, and Shaw, your first string GK and promising young striker gone through injuries... it is almost impossible to not get weaker. Even if you could somehow replace the talent, the massive amount of turnover in terms of players having to settle in and stuff is going to hurt you. It's frankly amazing that we aren't in a relegation battle right now.

I feel like it's good for managers to only stay 3-4 years. I think shake-ups help energize things, and players become better picking up different things from different people. Otherwise it all gets a bit stale. So if RK goes at the end of his contract, I'm okay with it despite liking him. I would be really nervous that we get one of the bad managers, but if we don't we will be fine.

The issues facing this club have to do with the business side of things. Can we generate enough revenue via marketing and the make right investments (in players or otherwise) to grow into a larger club? I don't know, but it's not really RK's purview. But that is what will make or break the club. For now, for the spending level/size we currently are, things are being extremely well-run top-to-bottom, and that includes the manager.

Good post ISIRTP - pretty much agree with all of it, although in Poch's defence, he's absolutely turned Spurs around from a team with a bunch of overpaid, overly mollycoddled "stars" into a cohesive unit that plays in his preferred style so I think he could have done the same transformative job here, despite player sales. I also don't think Adkins is better than either Poch or Koeman - that's a big stretch and would be borne out by what's happened since he left us. He was great for us up until a point, which (in my view) was a point that was correctly identified by Nicola (though I vehemently disagreed at the time). I know you were kinda saying that in the post, but I just had to point out my differences when saying he's better than MP or RK. Not for me.

The post-match carping over player choice is something that bugs me, I completely agree.

 

[mowgli]

Seemingly running counter to what I said on the same subject a few posts ago, I do need to point out here that regardless of when Ron is sacked (if he is at all), there is a 100% guarantee of there being a next manager (natural and financial disasters notwithstanding). It isn't the case that there is only a next manager once Ron is sacked. So in theory, the vacancy doesn't need to exist for Mowgli's chances of being next manager to improve (i would say the odds of that happening remain the same now and when the vacancy exists!). They could have started talks behind the scenes for Mowgli to replace Ron whenever he choose to go, be that next year or in ten years' time.

OK. That's it. I'm off to get my coaching badges (just in case).

 

[latviandream]

Seemingly running counter to what I said on the same subject a few posts ago, I do need to point out here that regardless of when Ron is sacked (if he is at all), there is a 100% guarantee of there being a next manager (natural and financial disasters notwithstanding). It isn't the case that there is only a next manager once Ron is sacked. So in theory, the vacancy doesn't need to exist for Mowgli's chances of being next manager to improve (i would say the odds of that happening remain the same now and when the vacancy exists!). They could have started talks behind the scenes for Mowgli to replace Ron whenever he choose to go, be that next year or in ten years' time.

Touché pelletron sir!

 

[I Sorry I Ruined The Party]

Good post ISIRTP - pretty much agree with all of it, although in Poch's defence, he's absolutely turned Spurs around from a team with a bunch of overpaid, overly mollycoddled "stars" into a cohesive unit that plays in his preferred style so I think he could have done the same transformative job here, despite player sales.

Yes I believe MP could have done it too, had he put his mind to it. In fact, had he stayed and really tried to get the players onboard, I think it is possible he could have convinced at least one player to stay. But he didn't though, he bailed.

RK actually did it. So that to me has to be a point in favor of RK.

 

[The Ides of March]

Is thinking big[/B] being too ambitious? Or is thinking small being too negative? Is wanting your Hobby/sport to do exceedingly well, over the top? Why the hell would it be? You don't enter any competition not to win it, no matter what the odds. You want your team to win no matter who they are playing you also want your team to be there or there abouts' at the top of their game. I don't see any posters on here saying we are bigger than Chelsea or Liverpool et el. Only that we want to compete and compete at the highest level.
Sometimes you have to accept facts and at this moment we are not on top of our game, we are not playing as well as we can. We can do better and yes we are a smaller club in the PL. So if that is thinking small for wanting more than we are doing and knowing we can do better, then for me time stands still!! As we all know that 'aint true......We all have an opinion and entitled to it, but to suggest people are thinking too small because they see things differently is in my opinion more negative!!

Most guys like to think big!

 

[davecg69]

I think he's a good manager. I also thought Pochettino was a good manager.

We've had some questionable loans/purchases that I think RK or Erwin had a hand in -- Martina, Elia. But then I felt like we largely got Alderweireld because of RK. And Clasie (more later). OTOH, MP probably had a big say in bringing in Oswaldo and that was a disaster. Also, while the Black Box supposedly had already identified Tadic and Pelle, I think RK had some input/influence there.

I think MP did a better job of playing the young players. But I think that the impact of this might be overstated. Shaw was just good. I think Chambers to some extent as well. There's no doubt that MP still made a greater effort. I don't doubt his commitment.

Tactically, I would rate them about equally. MP stuck with one style, but he drilled the players on it well and it was well-organized and used to great effect. But it was one-dimensional. I think RK is more flexible, and allows players more freedom on the pitch. I think people tend to notice the supposed bad moves more than the good. For example, I don't feel like there were that many complaints prior to the Villa match as to the lineup. And he put on Juanmi and Romeu as subs and both played well and Romeu grabbed the goal for us. And yet, after the game there was much carping over RK's choices... and oddly complaints about Clasie being bad even though he didn't play.

Both seem to rank highly in man management as the players were very loyal to MP and him leaving may have hastened some departures to some extent. OTOH, it seems like Clasie loves RK and otherwise might not have come here. Elia certainly loved him.

Quite frankly, RK has had to deal with things MP never had to. He never saw Shaw, Lallana, Clyne, Schneiderlin, etc. poached because he left before his players did. And that has to be a big point in RK's favor for me. He came to a team in disarray and fixed it. And handled a second exodus quite well. MP quit. And did it in a bad way, IMO.

I like them both. But I also think that neither are irreplaceable. My opinion is that bad managers are really, really bad and can single-handedly wreck a team. But there are many managers who are good and somewhat interchangeable. It's kind of a matter of timing as far as having the right talent, and also having the right mix of tactic/personality with the squad.

Honestly, I think Adkins was better than both when he was here. Toward the end of his tenure, I basically for the first time ever had gotten to the point where I just gave him carte blanche and never questioned his moves. At the same time, it's kind of hard for me to see foreign players and real world class talents digging his Adkinisms or responding to his style. Or him being able to attract the same quality of players. So Adkins was the best during his time, but doubt he would be the best now.

As for the squad being weaker... yes, in my opinion it is. And no, Clasie is not Schneiderlin and that hurts. But let's be real. It's crazy to expect that anyone was going to come in and just step into Schneiderlin's shoes. We did extremely well just to replace Alderweireld with VVD. You lose Lallana, Lovren (he was good for us, after all), Alderweireld, Clyne, Chambers, Schneiderlin, an icon like Lambert, and Shaw, your first string GK and promising young striker gone through injuries... it is almost impossible to not get weaker. Even if you could somehow replace the talent, the massive amount of turnover in terms of players having to settle in and stuff is going to hurt you. It's frankly amazing that we aren't in a relegation battle right now.

I feel like it's good for managers to only stay 3-4 years. I think shake-ups help energize things, and players become better picking up different things from different people. Otherwise it all gets a bit stale. So if RK goes at the end of his contract, I'm okay with it despite liking him. I would be really nervous that we get one of the bad managers, but if we don't we will be fine.

The issues facing this club have to do with the business side of things. Can we generate enough revenue via marketing and the make right investments (in players or otherwise) to grow into a larger club? I don't know, but it's not really RK's purview. But that is what will make or break the club. For now, for the spending level/size we currently are, things are being extremely well-run top-to-bottom, and that includes the manager.

Great post, ISIRTP. Don't necessarily agree with the Adkins analogy, but I think the rest is just about right. RK has done a sterling job since he arrived - yes, we have a weaker squad than last year, primarily because of Schneids, but we're a cohesive unit going through a bad patch. I know the next few fixtures are tough, but the players need to get themselves sorted out, the tactics need to be there and we, the fans, need to be behind the team, not carping on about sacking the manager. We don't want to do a Swansea, in my opinion. We all knew we wouldn't have as good a season as last year, but we're still way better than most of the clubs below us and we will come good. My opinion - I've seen Saints through worse "crises" than this and the manager needs to be given the benefit of the doubt, in my opinion.

 

[st_brendy]

I absolutely question Ron more than I ever did with Poch, and I continue to rate Poch as the better manager (although he was not without his faults - refusing to have a plan B probably being the biggest of them all).

I question Ron's use of Tadic (although that has improved this season). I question Ron's use of substitutions (conversely, I think this has got worse this season). I question Ron's use of Yoshida at RB. I question Ron's favouritism of Pelle.

But I don't think Ron is the issue here, and I don't want him sacked. The issue - or at least, the biggest issue - is our lack of squad depth. It's been a big issue in previous seasons, and it's an even bigger issue this year. Why is Cedric our only 'legitimate' RB? Why do we not have a natural right winger? Why is Pelle our only natural striker? Why do we not have a CM who can score or play well in an advanced role? Why did we basically only increase our squad size by two whole players over the summer, particularly when those players were Martina and Juanmi. Everton had three players on their bench today, any one of whom I would love to see in our starting XI to add an extra attacking threat. That's not Chelsea, or City. That's Everton.

 

[Saints_Alive]

All these comparisons between MP and Ron are pointless, but I'm much happier to have an honourable man as our manager than a deserting rat that ****ed off at the earliest opportunity. Make no mistake, we could've been in trouble at the start of last season, as many pundits predicted. We had a fantastic season thanks to Ron and his staff and has earnt a bit of faith as far as I'm concerned. A lot might depend on the January transfer window, but i'm certain that things will turn around and we will have another good season.
The facts stand that we finished higher under Ron Than MP.

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

Time to just provide support. We are missing Clyne and Schneiderlin...Ron is trying to sort out a team that seems a bit lost, but it will turn round. We just need that bit of luck....losing 1-0 could easily be a win to us. The team must feel down...like us, wondering were the next win is coming from. Luckily, our board is made of sterner stuff than Swansea.

 

[lamby]

Cant believe anyone thinks Ron could be sacked this year!

 

[fran-MLs little camera]

We are having a hiccup...may be a bit longer than usual because of the opposition coming up....but we will get enough results for an okay season. Show faith in RK and a good summer will see his 'last' season back to the same level as his first. If we believe in him, he may believe in us and sign a contract extension....even another year would provide us with stability. Ron is not the finished article as an EPL manager, but, with the right attitude and aptitude, you can learn more from a difficult time than from a string of easy times.